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June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am (This post was last modified: June 30, 2011 at 7:55 am by thebigfudge.)
Quote:No never. People got it horribly wrong, as people have the ability to do. Jesus spent most of his time telling the religious how wrong they were getting it.
well they got it wrong based on your personal view, I am sure their personal view was quite different. THe church is made up of personal views. thats why you have so many denominations. so many offshoots. all your beliefs are equally as valid. You may not believe that BUT then again they wont believe your right either.
Its quite a convenient argument don't you think "everyone else was wrong, BUUUT I am right" based on the same criteria.
Quote:The reformists changed it back to what Jesus actually taught you mean. From the 3rd century Christianity was hijacked by the lust for power and profit. There were literal rivers of blood. What went on was the opposite of Christ like.
Oh yeah that's the first 1500 years of Christianity are invalid as "they got the bible wrong" Jesus didn't actually write the bible. most of the NT was written by paul. Who according to the bible was inspired by God. So surely you have to take the bible in context. When the couple in Acts witheld their tithes they were killed by God. That doesnt seem very faith based to me ?
Quote:Again... that's not what Jesus taught or did. We should try to interpret as exactly as we can what the original text says. The oppression of women is a secular moral thing. What you're opposing here are the secular morals of the time, and not Christianity. Christians went along with the societal norm, sure. But what they did against Christ wasn't 'Christian'.
Lol. what about the catholic church, quite a lot of churches that still exist today DONT allow woman pastors based on what scriptures say. Again The bible is made up of numerous authors. under the influence of God. ie Paul,Luke so surely thier letters and books are just as valid as the gospels, infact more so as they are direct instructions and not parables which can have numerous meanings.
Also the societal norm wasn't secular it was religious ( at least in the UK-) its only very recently that we have became secular. Church and state were intertwined.
Quote:And the onus is upon you to demonstrate this. So far you've not made a single successful point
.
I think my points are all successful. There are numerous denominations. all of which have different ideas. different beliefs etc. so the logic does change It ;changes dramatically. Unless you are saying that different denominations don't exist or that because your belief is slightly different they are all wrong.
I used to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. Jimi Hendrix
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not. Kurt Cobain
June 30, 2011 at 7:58 am (This post was last modified: June 30, 2011 at 8:15 am by fr0d0.)
Not christlike but in relation to God, who is to say who has the best grasp on life? Many Christians get it wrong too. It doesn't do you any good getting hung up on terminology. We're all after the same thing.
Theologically Dawkings is a joke of course. Absolutely his book was written to counter the ignorance he faced in opposition to his work, and it's credible for that. Ultimately he's doing religion as much a favour as anti religion.
(June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am)thebigfudge Wrote:
Quote:No never. People got it horribly wrong, as people have the ability to do. Jesus spent most of his time telling the religious how wrong they were getting it.
well they got it wrong based on your personal view, I am sure their personal view was quite different. THe church is made up of personal views. thats why you have so many denominations. so many offshoots. all your beliefs are equally as valid. You may not believe that BUT then again they wont believe your right either.
Not my view. The view of the mainstream church and teachings on Christianity back to year dot. All mainstream churches believe the same root thing. Small disagreements are acceptable within the core beliefs. I believe all those other denominations are followers of Christ. That's why I can accept their members as mainstream Christians.
(June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am)thebigfudge Wrote: Its quite a convenient argument don't you think "everyone else was wrong, BUUUT I am right" based on the same criteria.
Except no one is saying that.
(June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am)thebigfudge Wrote:
Quote:The reformists changed it back to what Jesus actually taught you mean. From the 3rd century Christianity was hijacked by the lust for power and profit. There were literal rivers of blood. What went on was the opposite of Christ like.
Oh yeah that's the first 1500 years of Christianity are invalid as "they got the bible wrong" Jesus didn't actually write the bible. most of the NT was written by paul. Who according to the bible was inspired by God. So surely you have to take the bible in context. When the couple in Acts witheld their tithes they were killed by God. That doesnt seem very faith based to me ?
Those years weren't invalid at all. there were some people who got it wrong despite the massive power the church weilded. People protested to death at the anti christian rules of the christians in power.
Tell me about the two people.
(June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am)thebigfudge Wrote:
Quote:Again... that's not what Jesus taught or did. We should try to interpret as exactly as we can what the original text says. The oppression of women is a secular moral thing. What you're opposing here are the secular morals of the time, and not Christianity. Christians went along with the societal norm, sure. But what they did against Christ wasn't 'Christian'.
Lol. what about the catholic church, quite a lot of churches that still exist today DONT allow woman pastors based on what scriptures say. Again The bible is made up of numerous authors. under the influence of God. ie Paul,Luke so surely thier letters and books are just as valid as the gospels, infact more so as they are direct instructions and not parables which can have numerous meanings.
As I said above, those are details that we can debate. It doesn't affect the core beliefs, no matter how much you or I might oppose such ideas. Are we following secular morals or doing what God wants? Our opinion happens to reflect the secular norm so we have to be careful there.
(June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am)thebigfudge Wrote: Also the societal norm wasn't secular it was religious ( at least in the UK-) its only very recently that we have became secular. Church and state were intertwined.
I don't think It's as simple as that. The social norm at the time was oppressive to women. The 'religious' state had the same position. Hmm.
(June 30, 2011 at 7:45 am)thebigfudge Wrote:
Quote:And the onus is upon you to demonstrate this. So far you've not made a single successful point
.
I think my points are all successful. There are numerous denominations. all of which have different ideas. different beliefs etc. so the logic does change It ;changes dramatically. Unless you are saying that different denominations don't exist or that because your belief is slightly different they are all wrong.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Quote:Not my view. The view of the mainstream church and teachings on Christianity back to year dot. All mainstream churches believe the same root thing. Small disagreements are acceptable within the core beliefs. I believe all those other denominations are followers of Christ. That's why I can accept their members as mainstream Christians.
well not really. Women pastors not a small thing. How many people going to heaven not a small thing, Wither you require water baptism or not , wither saints exist or not. speaking in tongue's. Do you require physical confession. should you actually painfully punish yourself as repentance and many more
those are all big differenes. I could go to more extreme views. ie JW's etc
Quote:Except no one is saying that.
well you said they got it horribly wrong, based on your personal view and nothing more. They believed what they were doing was right.
Quote:The reformists changed it back to what Jesus actually taught you mean. From the 3rd century Christianity was hijacked by the lust for power and profit. There were literal rivers of blood. What went on was the opposite of Christ like.
Quote:Those years weren't invalid at all. there were some people who got it wrong despite the massive power the church weilded. People protested to death at the anti christian rules of the christians in power.
obviously they were it was you who said that the church went back to their original roots in the reformist movement. How can both a works based AND a faith based religion both be right ? one must logically be wrong
Quote:Tell me about the two people.
Acts 5 1-11
Quote:As I said above, those are details that we can debate. It doesn't affect the core beliefs, no matter how much you or I might oppose such ideas. Are we following secular morals or doing what God wants? Our opinion happens to reflect the secular norm so we have to be careful there.
They were doing what God wanted as written through Paul. There is nothing secular about that
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Also the societal norm wasn't secular it was religious ( at least in the UK-) its only very recently that we have became secular. Church and state were intertwined.
From 1 Tim 2
Quote:I don't think It's as simple as that. The social norm at the time was oppressive to women. The 'religious' state had the same position. Hmm.
Ummm religion was the social norm. secularism did not exist. In fact for most of our history a secular view could get you excommunicated or killed.
Quote:Do you still think that?
Of course. denominations are split dramatically on numerous things you may equate these as small. some are. but small things add up. But then you get bigger divides such as the whole catholic/ protestant split. The logic of Christianity has changed throughout time.
I used to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. Jimi Hendrix
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not. Kurt Cobain
June 30, 2011 at 8:45 am (This post was last modified: June 30, 2011 at 8:46 am by The Grand Nudger.)
You know fudge, I want to point out, that in the case of faith/works, assuming that one or the other is correct is a false dichotomy. There is a third position. Neither. Perhaps they cannot both be true at once, but they can both be false simultaneously. This can be expanded to encompass the entirety of religious thought, of course. More for the lurkers than for you.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(June 30, 2011 at 8:45 am)Rhythm Wrote: You know fudge, I want to point out, that in the case of faith/works, assuming that one or the other is correct is a false dichotomy. There is a third position. Neither. Perhaps they cannot both be true at once, but they can both be false simultaneously. This can be expanded to encompass the entirety of religious thought, of course. More for the lurkers than for you.
Oh I know. I just fitted into the example I was using and how they are drastically opposed. they both can be wrong but one cant be right. lol
I used to live in a room full of mirrors; all I could see was me. I take my spirit and I crash my mirrors, now the whole world is here for me to see. Jimi Hendrix
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not. Kurt Cobain
fr0d0, what are these core beliefs you speak of? I've seen you mention them before but you have yet to define them. Please avoid subjective statements like, "Correctly interpreting Jesus' teachings."
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
Sure Godschild, I'll give you the cliffnotes, and if you take issue with any specific thing feel free to thread it up.
A person or group that self identifies as christian is in fact christian. I cannot provide a definitive argument about what people believe about their beliefs that would allow me to say "you, sir, are not a christian." I could potentially say that they weren't a very good christian (by whatever standard they chose or is generally accepted upon) but that does not of course prove that they are incorrect about their belief...about their beliefs.
The statement that the bible is not an accurate representation of history is pretty well documented, and anyone who cares to know how we know that things like Exodus or the Census in Beth are mythical can freely find this information. Google is a great place to start. The volume of historical claims made in the bible (new and old testament) is staggering. I'm not even going to attempt to address each one point by point.
Courts in developed countries do not cross reference their decisions with Leviticus. Wrenching a moral authority from the bible (that doesn't read like a demons resume) is exhausting and requires more cherry picking than it does to actually pick cherries. Is god pro genocide, infanticide, rape, slavery or against? (just the ones that immediately come to mind)
The account of creation in genesis is not an explanation of anything. It does not conform to the areas of our origins where we actually have mountains of actual, physical evidence, case in point it directly contradicts it in many places (re firmaments, the order of appearance of species, characteristics or classifications of comparable species)....and does not offer us anything to help us understand the parts we're still working on. If it did, we wouldn't have to continue looking would we.
Revelation again offers no insight, famously due to a lack of dates and heavily mythical imagery. Some people, when predicting the future, have the the courtesy to be more specific.
In all of this above you could find a passage in the bible that contradicts my argument, and I could find one that supports it. That is textbook inconsistency.
Denominations quarrel over the status of jesus divinity, his final words on the cross, the doctrine of faith or works, again, inconsistencies that have spawned, apparently, 33800 different denominations of christianity
The narrative style of the old testament is a prophetic cycle, whereby common themes and events are described which help to form the sense that a pattern is repeating itself, allowing the people who believe in scriptures to make predictions based upon the events of the past. The events and beings described form the basis of what we know about ancient hebrew belief systems and worldview. The new testament is different (not surprising given the difference in time between them). It's part of what cultural anthropologists call the monomyth and epic hero. Jesus is an everyman called to something greater who reaches beyond the accepted limits of his origin and suffers the consequences.
Are these the statements you wanted me to give proof for? Should I have included a sources page, do I get an A?
To say that any church that calls itself a christian church is a christian church, well that's like any loan shark that calls himself a bank is a bank. If you believe your statement then you should put all your money in the loan sharks pocket, that's his vault. JW and Mormons are not christian churches they have their own books and/or bibles that supersede the Holy Bible. Any church founded on the idea that works and works alone is the way to salvation, is not a christian church, time and again the NT tells us that salvation is by grace and not by works. If salvation by works was all it took then why would Jesus have given His life. The OT is full of works and they never saved anyone and why, because one would have had to be perfect in their works and no one was, this is why there was the sacrificing of animals there had to be an atonement for sin. When Christ came and allowed Himself to be that sacrifce it was the last one needed as declared by God, so if works were all that was needed then Jesus wasted His life, but since Jesus said that no one comes to the Father but by Me... well that kind of shoots down works as the way to salvation and all chuches that depend on works for salvation. If you would study scripture instead of cheerypicking your way through them you might see that works are the result of salvation through faith and grace.
There is a cental thread through the OT and that is Christ, but of coarse you have never seen it because you were to busily hurrying through to find controversy that you could not find the truth. I do take it that you have read the Bible, at least your statements make it seem you have. God's great love is another thread that runs through the entire Bible But you can't see that either because all you want to see is violence and there's no need in bringing up all the wars, killings and ect. I know their there I was just going over some of that the other night for the umpteenth time. Another thing that is central to all of scripture, we are not promised a life free of tragedy and many hardships, however we are told that if we follow the teachings within scriptures we can find comfort during these awful times, have you tried to find such worth while things in scriptures, I bet not since all you seem to say is how worthless scriptures are. You see that is why the christians on this forum are so adamant in their defence of the scriptures we know what there is within them to bring great peace and wonder into our lives, you know the one I'm talking about don't you, the peace that is beyond all understanding.
As far as the reading and studying of scriptures being a fruitless endeavor...well I believe you are wrong I find it quite rewarding and always will because I look for God's truth there. Archaeologist and historians have given credit to the Bibical accounts for aiding in the discoveries of a lot of history in that area of the world, however that was never the intent of the writers of scripture, this is a book that was written to aid mankind in finding the one true God and nothing else.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
Wait-so a religion cannot be christian if it invents its own text-even if it is in the name of christ that they do this, guided by the sacred ouija and all that?
