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'choosing' thoughts.
#31
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 13, 2009 at 11:06 pm)athoughtfulman Wrote: To have free will, wouldn't we have to be able to do absolutely anything? Like fly, turn into a tiger, create a universe? Because right now, no matter how much I want to do something like that, I can't. I simply don't have the freedom to do that.
*facepalm*

Sorry, but I can't believe I'm reading that. Here is a definition of free will for you:

1) free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2) Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Free will is about what we do, not what we want to do. Just because I want to fly like a bird and can't doesn't mean my free will doesn't exist. Free will is about whether we can make independent decisions that aren't influenced by physics. I think free will exists because physics has shown us some truly random events, and al the evidence currently points towards an indeterministic view of the universe.

The other reason is that determinism doesn't really make much sense to me. It means that all information has simply sprung out of nothing. The fact that we are having this conversation was already pre-determined at the start of all time. I think this is a completely non-nonsensical view.

I also dislike determinism for the social effects it would have. People cannot go around thinking everything is "fate" because the invariably leads to people abandoning morality because what they do "will have always happened". It's a dangerous notion.
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#32
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 14, 2009 at 10:23 am)Tiberius Wrote: I think free will exists because physics has shown us some truly random events, and al the evidence currently points towards an indeterministic view of the universe.

What I have been saying is that while free will is impossible with determinism. I don't think indeterminism implies it. If physics has truly random events, if this is an indeterministic universe, how does that imply free will in any way? Where is the evidence?

If determinism is just one big X that WILL happen and 'there's nothing you can do about it.' And Indeterminism is many different things that can happen, but to simplify it I will say A B C. Just because you could go down road A B or C. And you could end up doing either of them - how does that imply that WHEN you do one of those things you are in any way separate from physics or had any special influence over the matter at all?

E.G, to simplify: if determinism is X whether you like it or not. Indeterminism could simply be something like A, B or C (or however many) whether you like it or not. And if one of those happens (e.g C or whatever) who is to say that you are the one that chose it? Yes it could have gone A or B but that could just be the physics bouncing about and the randomization of the universe not that you guided YOURSELF with free will right?

How can you do other than what you are doing I mean? You are a slave to yourself right? You have freedom but only to do what you are doing I think. I don't see how you can steer yourself. You can believe you are 'steering yourself' but did you have any choice in your belief on that matter? Did you 'steer yourself' to believe that? And simply because you believe it, is that any evidence whatsoever?

I think determinism makes free will impossible. But I still of yet know of no evidence of why indeterminism means you can be separate from physics and having any real choice in the matter - rather than physics simply being more random and unpredictable rather than determined.

I think there is freedom and evitability. But how does an indeterministic universe in any way imply free will or give any evidence of it? Rather than simply making it possible whereas its totally impossible in a deterministic universe.

Hopefully I haven't misunderstood.

EvF
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#33
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 14, 2009 at 10:23 am)Tiberius Wrote: Sorry, but I can't believe I'm reading that.

Here is a definition of free will for you:

1) free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2) Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Free will is about what we do, not what we want to do. Just because I want to fly like a bird and can't doesn't mean my free will doesn't exist. Free will is about whether we can make independent decisions that aren't influenced by physics. I think free will exists because physics has shown us some truly random events, and al the evidence currently points towards an indeterministic view of the universe.

The other reason is that determinism doesn't really make much sense to me. It means that all information has simply sprung out of nothing. The fact that we are having this conversation was already pre-determined at the start of all time. I think this is a completely non-nonsensical view.

I also dislike determinism for the social effects it would have. People cannot go around thinking everything is "fate" because the invariably leads to people abandoning morality because what they do "will have always happened". It's a dangerous notion.

Duly noted Big Grin It was simply me taking an idea of free will to its extreme, not me proposing an absolute definition of free will.

As far as an actual definition goes, I believe you've hit the nail on the head.

This argument about the existence of free will is not disputing that we can do - It's disputing what the mechanics are concerning how we want. Just because physics seem random, doesn't mean they are. That's the problem of science when concerning philosophical matters. Sure, at this point, it might seem random. But science works by continually unwrapping the mystery of the environment around us, so one day we might discover the equation of the universe and if everything is planned.

Because it's a philosophical question, it's more of an opinion than anything else. I don't believe in free will (for why, see above) - you do. We're just looking at things in a different way.

All information from nothing? No, not necessarily. All I'm proposing is that we don't actually choose. As far as everything else, it just means there is some reason that they are here. Or take science, go back to the beginning of evolution? What made the big bang? And if you know that, what made that thing? And so on. I'm not about to start parading god exists because there needs to be a first cause either Wink I just want to illustrate the fact that there is a reason for something; for everything. Even if it's only scientific.

Of course it's a dangerous motion. And it's a dangerous idea. Look at the way some people respond when you tell them free will doesn't exist. Some get angry, some refuse to talk about it, some don't even listen let alone understand. And I know what you mean - if no one believes in free will, doesn't that mean that they can do whatever they want, since they didn't really choose to do it?

No! I don't believe in free will, but I'll always live like I do. I appreciate the fact that everything feels random, and that I can 'choose' but I find it naive to think that I'm in control of my life. So even if no one believed in free will, I would still tell them to act as though they did. Just because I don't believe in it, doesn't mean I don't feel like it.

I think it's a bit of a funny idea. And intriguing. And I know it's philosophical and just an opinion, not a fact. It's just the way I look at it.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#34
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 13, 2009 at 9:25 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:
(March 13, 2009 at 9:24 am)Giff Wrote: You really dont make sence.

What do you base you theory on that we don't have free will and that we don't chose our thoughts?

On the fact that I don't know of any evidence of free will. Or that we DO indeed choose our thoughts....do you?

Do you have any evidence that we don't chose our thoughts?
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#35
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 15, 2009 at 8:40 am)Giff Wrote:
(March 13, 2009 at 9:25 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:
(March 13, 2009 at 9:24 am)Giff Wrote: You really dont make sence.

What do you base you theory on that we don't have free will and that we don't chose our thoughts?

On the fact that I don't know of any evidence of free will. Or that we DO indeed choose our thoughts....do you?

Do you have any evidence that we don't chose our thoughts?

We can't get caught up in the whole "well you dont have evidence", "well neither do you" discussion. I think what EVF means (and what I mean) is that there is no evidence that we choose our thoughts, and based on that, has decided not to believe in complete free will.

I don't think there is any empirical evidence for either point of view, just a whole lot of ideas and examples describing both sides. For me, it just makes more sense to believe there is no free will. It is a matter of taste, for it's certainly not life-changing.

For those who believe in free will, go right ahead. I just disagree with you Wink
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#36
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 15, 2009 at 6:18 am)athoughtfulman Wrote: All information from nothing? No, not necessarily. All I'm proposing is that we don't actually choose.
And if we don't actually choose, what we do is unchangeable. It is set in stone. It was predetermined. So the name Issac Newton's parents chose for him was pre-determined (since we can have no choice), and Issac Newton's theories on gravity were also all pre-determined (since he had no freedom of choice to do other things).

If you can't see how determinism means information springing out of nothing (even if we ignore the physics side and focus on the philosophy side) then I can't explain it better than this.

It means that every single choice anyone has ever made in the history of humanity has been pre-determined, which means that all the consequences of those choices are pre-determined as well, which means every single human endeavour, thought, product, etc has been pre-determined since the first human evolved (or heck, since the first cell formed). Where did the information come from?
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#37
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 15, 2009 at 8:40 am)Giff Wrote:
(March 13, 2009 at 9:25 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:
(March 13, 2009 at 9:24 am)Giff Wrote: You really dont make sence.

What do you base you theory on that we don't have free will and that we don't chose our thoughts?

On the fact that I don't know of any evidence of free will. Or that we DO indeed choose our thoughts....do you?

Do you have any evidence that we don't chose our thoughts?

I don't need any. We first need evidence OF free will before there is to be any evidence against it.

You don't need to disprove something that is completely lacking in evidence. Just as we don't need to give evidence against the existence of God, Ghosts, the IPU, the FSM, The Celestial Teapot etc...because there is no evidence OF them in the first place....

Until I know of any positive evidence of free will. I will assume that it is illogical to need any negative evidence...any evidence AGAINST the existence of it. Where is the evidence OF it in the first place?

The default is no free will. Until there is evidence OF it or FOR it...I don't need evidence AGAINST it I think.

The burden of proof is on a positive claim first until its known to be provided with evidence. Once and if enough evidence is provided then you need evidence against that claim because the (positive) claim now has evidence and is no longer unsubstantiated, unsupported, etc. Right?

If there's evidence OF free will I'll gladly be willing to hear of it and do my best to assess it. If there isn't any then I shall assume for the time being that it probably doesn't exist (there isn't any, there is only freedom in general; rights, evitability).

EvF
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#38
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
(March 15, 2009 at 2:53 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Where did the information come from?

I can see how it looks like it springs out of nothing, so I know where you are coming from. But I don't believe there ever was necessarily nothing. Who knows? If there was, then sure, something came out of nothing. If it wasn't, then there has always been a continuing equation, with no beginning and no end.

Why did there ever have to be nothing? And how would we know anyway?

I'm not an expert on evolution, so correct me if I'm wrong, but if you follow evolution back to it's beginning, isn't something coming out of nothing? And if so, why did it do it before? Where did it get the information to begin the process? If evolution never had a beginning, why is it so hard to believe that determinism never had a beginning?

I think where we differ is that you are looking at the equation in the big picture, where as I'm looking at it specifically within our lifetimes. I just believe that we don't have as much free will as we think, and think it makes more sense to believe that it doesn't actually exist as we think it does. There may be levels of this, such as some occasions when we do choose, but whether it's at the front of our mind, deep in our subconscious, or when we are born, I couldn't say.

Again, neither of us can observe the process, so either of our opinions is as valid as the others, though I'm interested in your answers to the above questions.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#39
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
Well evolution is the development of life, and all life is is replicating molecules. You arrange molecules in certain ways and you get different forms of life. The molecules in turn developed, and we can trace this back to the Big Bang, so it was "something". This small something developed using the laws of the universe, and continues to develop today.

I have to admit I've heard some pretty lousy arguments for determinism over the years, the worst of which was presented by YouTuber "gogreen18" who 99.9% of the time is a rational person who argues very well for atheism. Her flawed argument for determinism went something like "my brother doesn't like bananas, and even if I ask him to eat bananas he won't, because it is programmed into him that he doesn't like bananas and therefore won't eat them". This is ridiculous. I don't like bananas either, but I could easily go downstairs and eat one if I wanted to.

I also want to bring in science to the conversation, because currently science states that true randomness does occur in nature. Indeterminism in science is as accepted as gravity, and determinism is all but dead. This might not relate to free will of course, but the fact remains that determinism is only a philosophy because it assumed that every action in the universe had an effect, and those effects caused other effects, etc, etc. If the universe operated like this, then you could simply rewind and play it all again and have the exact same result. Since this isn't the case (at least not according to science) then indeterminism related to free will is still on the table.

I agree though, that the problem with the whole argument is that a deterministic universe looks exactly the same as an indeterministic one. The only way to know for sure is to travel back in time and observe the universe from outside the universe (so as not to have any affect on the state of the past universe). This is impossible of course Big Grin
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#40
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
Like you said, it's impossible to know.

But I find it stimulating to consider my options.

You weren't debating in the comments on YouTube were you? Because those things are just rubbish.. I swear most of the people who argue on there don't have a life. It's not intelligent, it's not rational, and it's certainly not enlightening Wink

I think that science can only begin to explain it. For example, I think determinism works like an equation, albeit a very complicated one. Like you said, every action has an effect, and those effects caused other effects, and so on. So all we'd need to do is get those effects, put them together and we'd have the same thing right? In theory, yes. But think about the magnitude of this task. Just starting with a thought, think about all the things which might influence a thought. A feeling, an emotion, another thought, something you see, smell, hear, taste or touch, or an intuition could all be involved. Just to take one step back would mean looking at a million things and the order of their exposure to the subject. So it's a bit of a dead end. And I can understand the whole free-will/indeterminism belief, but like I said, it just doesn't work with what I've observed, though I have of course, I have no solid, empirical evidence.

I've seen my share of stupid arguments for determinism too, and I used to believe adamantly in free will, believing that we wouldn't be human without it. But whoever said that we had to have it? Before we thought about being free, we probably never thought about free will. We just lived life, not in the least concerned nor even aware of whether free will existed or not. It's an interesting though.

I find that to argue about it properly, you have to accept that you can't actually prove either side, and this is where so many people get caught up.

You seen that Family Guy episode where Peter's ancestor is a philosopher? His wife tells him to go to work and he says... why? Big Grin Reminds me of myself and the way I look at free will, and follow it to its end.

I'm always looking for the why.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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