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'choosing' thoughts.
#1
'choosing' thoughts.
I know that there are people who think that we can 'choose' what to think.

And what I am wondering is this: If we choose our thoughts, what do we choose them with? More thoughts? How the hell does that work then?

Or if 'the brain' simply chooses them or 'we' simply choose them I mean, and not our conscious thoughts in particular; then if its an unconscious or subconscious part of the brain that chooses thoughts then where does the choice come in?

And if we CAN'T choose our conscious thoughts and they simply 'happen' in the brain and we take credit for them, it's an illusion; then where is the freedom in your own mind? Other than being under the illusion by not being aware of your thoughts so you don't feel that they are really uncontrollable? They just happen?

How one earth does it work?

EvF
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#2
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
I'm sure one can control one's thoughts to a degree but if we're talking about that old theist b#llocks about choosing to believe I don't think it can be done, my personal philosophy (what I believe) is the result of what I am mentally and not the other way round.

I am a rationalist and could no more believe the kind of rubbish theists believe without full justification than I could believe black is bright green.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
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#3
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
I totally agree that we can't choose our own beliefs.

But I think that beliefs are influenced perhaps by the many thoughts we have over a long period of time.

E.g: Outside reality influences our beliefs, other people influence our beliefs - but HOW we interpret those things influences our beliefs too.

And I think if you can't choose your beliefs (and I don't think you possibly can), and beliefs are shaped not simply by reality but how WE interpret reality; then ultimately wouldn't your thoughts just have to 'happen' as well?

What I would like to know is if how we interpret reality with out thoughts, effects our beliefs and we can't choose our beliefs; then wouldn't we have to not be able to choose our thoughts either?

Because if we could choose our thoughts and our thoughts interpret our reality; and how we interpret reality is how we choose our beliefs: then that would mean if we could choose our thoughts then we could deliberately choose to influence our own beliefs right?

Which I of course don't believe we can do.

So if we can't choose our beliefs; how could we choose our thoughts? If our thoughts interpret our reality which influences our beliefs?

Otherwise wouldn't that mean if we choose certain thoughts and this made us interpret things in a certain way - then those thoughts that we chose would influence our beliefs? Because our thoughts interpret reality which in turn influences our beliefs? And influence when swayed enough way could change a belief?

EvF
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#4
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
I think overall we do have a certain "choice", but it isn't a choice we make consciously like "I'm going to the shops now". It's a choice that we reach over a long period of time after weighing all the odds.
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#5
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
You mean like; an individual thought we don't choose. But by thinking enough thoughts we can decide which thought is the best and THEN we think something like "I'm going to the shops now".

Kind of like a process of elimination thing? We have to think about nonsensical, unimportant, random automatic stuff in order to find a thought that's actually useful? It just happens?

But don't the conscious choices like "I'm going to the shops now" just come out of the back of our mind as well? Don't thoughts just happen in our head?

How do we choose thought with thought?

For example if we use our other thoughts to decide to go to the shops. And that thought it conscious and deliberate; then how CAN it be conscious and deliberate if all these other random thoughts that we are using to interpret our reality 'just happen'.

How are conscious choices chosen if all the other thoughts aren't? What are they chosen with?

What are thoughts chosen with, how are they chosen? We make choices with our thoughts; but how do we choose our thoughts then? With more thoughts? How does that work? Isn't that some kind of contradiction?

Sorry if it's overly bizarrely philosophical or something; but I'm afraid I'm very interested in this kind of thing Tongue

EvF
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#6
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
Your making it more complicated then it is.

We do some thing sub-conscious, like walking and all other stuff. Some things do we do by instinct. Those things we can control do we just chose. But we don't chose our thoughts, we just think.

We oftenly don't think in words, when we talk do we come up with the words as we speak. It's a very effective and complicated process in brain that react very fast. Saw a program about thougts, words and all that, in swedish tough so it's hard to explain everything in english
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#7
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
Hmm well when we talk then aren't we kind of thinking aloud?

And the thoughts in the back of our head aren't noticed while we are talking?

And what I mean is if we can choose our thoughts then how can we; we other thoughts? Don't see how that would work.

And as you say; if we can't choose our thoughts (I don't believe we can); then where does the choice come in?

How do we know we don't just do and say stuff and merely think we have a 'choice'?

And if there is no evidence of 'choice' then what is the null-hypothesis: Choice or no choice?

And if there IS evidence of 'choice'; then what is it? How do we know we dont' merely THINK we have choice: And that those thoughts we THINK - we don't have choice in either. It is just a pyschological effect and all we have is evitability?

And on a similar note: I do think that free will is completely impossible and cotradictary to DETERMINISM.

But I don't think indeterminism implies free will: It simply leaves it open as a possibility.

Because if determism means a certain thing WILL happen. Then you have no choice in the matter and have no 'free will' or 'choice'.

Indeterminism simply means there are many alternative outcomes that really COULD happen right? And it could go any of those ways?

Now it could be as much as infinite but to simplify lets say there are 3 choices A, B and C (rather than one unavoidable X that is determinism).

It could indeed go to A, it could indeed go to B, it could indeed go to C.

And after one of those outcomes is reached, e.g; C. You could talk about how it could have also went one of the other ways and one of the other outcomes could have came about instead.

But how exactly does this imply that you could have 'free will' and consciously CHOOSE A, B, or C? Or indeed have any free 'choice' or 'will' on it at all and how it happens?

Where Determism just leaves an unescapable route where there is no free will possible; indeterminism I believe makes it possible simply because there are other possible outcomes. With only one outcome that MUST happen there is no free will. With indeterminism - with more possible outcomes; - there is certainly an open possibility of free will. But where exactly is it implied at all? And where is the evidence for 'free will' rather than just evitability?

EvF
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#8
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
I personally don't believe in free will, but I think no one can offer proof for either side of the argument. We can speculate, and take the thought process back to it's beginning, but in the end, until science uncovers something conclusive about consciousness and the mind, I don't think we can know.

I believe that every thought is influenced by the thought before it, and so on and on. Take birth for example. As you come into reality, you interpret it straight away. You might not use words, but something in you observes and makes an interpretation of reality. Awareness might even take place in the womb. I don't know what the acoustics are in women's bellies, but a baby might even be making observations of reality while he's hanging out in the womb. It's a strange thought.

But as the baby grows into a kid and a kid into an adult, each thought is giving way to the next. Why would did he want to play soccer? Some thought before that, or combination of thoughts. It's like a really complicated equation. But don't ever think that two people can be exactly the same in personality and beliefs, for the ordering of each experience is integral to someone's make up. If one experience happens, the next one will happen in relation to the first, for the person has made an observation on the first, and changes his reaction in subsequent observation of the second.

Perhaps you could apply it to the universe and evolution. To the blind eye, it appears random and that it happened at chance. But the more we enquire, the more reasons we find for something happening. Free will could be likened to random thoughts or choices, that is, not predetermined. So when we look at thoughts and beliefs, it appears random and hence appears the humans on the whole, are free creatures. But with closer observation on the human mind and consciousness, I think we will find a certain order to the equation of thoughts, choices and beliefs.

I made a choice to go down the road and buy milk. I needed the milk because I'd run out. I'd run out because I'd drank it all. I drank it all because I was thirsty. I was thirsty because I didn't drink enough water. I didn't drink enough water because I was pissed off about an argument with a friend. I was pissed of about the argument because he didn't listen to me. He didn't listen to me because he is very outspoken and doesn't like listening, he likes to talk. He likes to talk more than listen because he's insecure. He's insecure because of his childhood. etc. etc. etc.

It's an extremely simplified version of what I think is happening everyday.

Despite not believing in free will, and everything I have said above, I still believe that there is not one thing we can do about it, and would be happy to change my mind if there was sufficient evidence to do so. The only thing we as humans can do is live. Whether we believe in free will or not, we still have to make choices, so I think the best resolution is to go on making choices and decisions, forming beliefs and so on. A lot of people are paralyzed by the idea that they're not free.

What really makes it weird is when you start asking, what made us think about this? What part of fate decided that we should question it? I know you could describe it the same as above, but it seems like fate, or destiny or whatever word you use is playing a trick on us Confusedhock:
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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#9
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
Good post. I also think that our thoughts are chosen by 'us'.

Because what part of us chooses them? They choose them selves and/or are influenced by previous thoughts or subconscious thoughts etc, I think.

Once again nice post. I don't understand how one can choose one's own thoughts with - what? - other thoughts? That doesn't really make sense to me. Kind of the begging the question fallacy I think: We choose out thoughts...how do we do that? With our thoughts! lol.

I think with determinism free will is completely impossible. With INdeterminism its possible - but I don't know of any evidence that there is any.

Now there is evitability - so however 'unfree' it makes you feel - you are no less free than you have ever been. You can do what you always did. If you don't have free will now then you never did - so what's the point in worrying?

Its one thing to have a future that's not determined. Its another to be able to decide exactly what path to go down without simply being, like everything else.

If there are 5 doors and you don't know where any of them led to...and 4 of them are safe and 1 of them is dangerous....

If you had bad luck and went down the dangerous one....I don't see how it could make sense that you had 'free will' to choose otherwise and make a better decision. You just did what you thought was best. And once again how do you choose those thoughts? With thoughts?

So I think determinism is impossible with free will. But indeterminism certainly doesn't imply it in the traditional sense. Obviously there is evitability and there is more so in some circumstances than in others.

EvF
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#10
RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
Of course.

I think it we need to suggest a different word. Free will implies the freedom to do anything, which I don't believe humans have. I do believe in free agency however. It's like how you said - how do you choose thoughts? With thoughts? It's hard to find the bottom of it, and maybe there isn't even a bottom to it, which is where our free agency comes in. We have the freedom to make decisions and choices within a certain frame. Hence the doors question. We don't choose how many doors there are, we just get to choose which one we go in.
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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