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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 16, 2009 at 8:57 am
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2009 at 8:58 am by Giff.)
The "we have no free will" theory is not based on anything but assupmtion and imagination. Which also religion is based on.
Agree with you Adrian, determinism is just a philosophy or closely reletated to religion.
The detminism is as likely as we all are living on small piece of dust in a giants hair.
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 16, 2009 at 7:00 pm
I will practically assume the HAVE "free will theory" is based on assumption until I know of any evidence of the existence of free will!
I am not arguing for determinism. Determinism does indeed make free will impossible. But I do not see how indeterminism makes it any more than simply possible just because there are many possible paths rather than one CERTAIN GUARANTEED path.....how on earth does that imply you have any choice in which path you will go down? Just because you could go down A B or C, etc, etc (indeterminism) rather than it HAVING to be an X that WILL happen (determinism) how does that imply or give evidence for free will? How does indeterminism imply free will over physics?
If physics is more random...how does that mean we can control physics?
E.G: If there is a dice that has the numbers 1 to 6 on it...the fact there are 6 possibilites and it could go either one of the 6, rather than ONE that is certain that 'it will go on' how does that mean we have control over the random dice?
EvF
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 16, 2009 at 7:11 pm
(This post was last modified: March 16, 2009 at 7:12 pm by athoughtfulman.)
(March 16, 2009 at 8:57 am)Giff Wrote: The "we have no free will" theory is not based on anything but assupmtion and imagination. Which also religion is based on.
Agree with you Adrian, determinism is just a philosophy or closely reletated to religion.
The detminism is as likely as we all are living on small piece of dust in a giants hair.
Think about it. Free will is a philosophical idea as much as a lack of it is. Both sides of this argument lend their reasoning to philosophical arguments, therefore we cannot say which is actually true. If you want to treat it like religion, then the onus is on you to provide empirical evidence of free will, since you are making the positive claim. If you can do that, then I will either have to concede or provide evidence for a lack of free will. However, as far as I know, neither of us can do either.
If you just think about determinism, it seems like a religion. But if you follow out train of thought back and back, continually asking "why this choice", you'll arrive at determinism anyway. But why are you afraid of it?
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 8:07 am
Afraid? Not afraid. It is just a irrational idea, just like religion.
As I said there is nothing to support determinism besides your own imagionation. Since there are no proof for it, then it means that is not a valid idea. So is the theoiry that we are living on a small piece of dust in a giants hair, which also can't prove nor dissprove.
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 8:57 am
I think we need to figure out what we're actually talking about.
Determinism, let's leave that for now. It applies to everything so we're not getting any answers there.
Free will, let's talk about that. And just free will. Humans might not be free, but the universe might be random. Hence, free will is independent of determinism, at least determinism for the whole of nature.
Which is the default? Which is natural? Do we start with free will? Or do we start with no free will? If we can't even figure that out, then we're both going to be arguing about who has to provide evidence for their claim. And if we can't make a case for either free will, or no free will to begin with, then it is a philosophical discussion. I don't believe we can know which exists. You believe in free will (a philosophical choice), so from your belief, I am the one with the positive claim and the responsibility to provide evidence. I don't believe in free will (again, a philosophical choice), so from my belief, you are the one with the responsibility to provide evidence.
Whether is have free will or not is immaterial. We can't observe it, because we are in the middle of it. If you can step outside of time, looking at the timeline of our choices and the mechanics behind them, then you might have something. But until that time, I remain convinced that it's a philosophical discussion.
(March 16, 2009 at 8:57 am)Giff Wrote: The "we have no free will" theory is not based on anything but assupmtion and imagination. Which also religion is based on.
And the "we have free will" isn't?
That's what I'm interested in.
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 11:09 am
The free will isn't a imagination. But of course animals, and we in some degree, are reacting to instincts such as hunger. That make us not entierly free. But we are still making choices.
Also the free will and randomnes is proven by evolution and nature. Mathematcis and Quantum mechanics are also showing that things are random and how likely things will happen can be calculated with diffrent equations.
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 11:20 am
(March 17, 2009 at 11:09 am)Giff Wrote: The free will isn't a imagination. But of course animals, and we in some degree, are reacting to instincts such as hunger. That make us not entierly free. But we are still making choices.
It's nice to believe that but you can't possibly prove it any more than someone can prove we have no free will 
(March 17, 2009 at 11:09 am)Giff Wrote: Also the free will and randomnes is proven by evolution and nature. Mathematcis and Quantum mechanics are also showing that things are random and how likely things will happen can be calculated with diffrent equations.
Just because something is unpredictable doesn't prove free will.
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 1:23 pm
(March 17, 2009 at 11:20 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (March 17, 2009 at 11:09 am)Giff Wrote: Also the free will and randomnes is proven by evolution and nature. Mathematcis and Quantum mechanics are also showing that things are random and how likely things will happen can be calculated with diffrent equations.
Just because something is unpredictable doesn't prove free will.
Which is entirely my point Kyu. Determinism may make free will impossible but I do not see how indeterminism IMPLIES it and gives evidence for it.
And until I see any evidence for free will whatsoever I will assume there is no free will.
Where is the evidence that the randomness of physics implies that we can freely steer our own way AWAY from this randomness if we so wish, anymore than we could steer it if it wasn't random and instead was predetermined completely?
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 5:22 pm
(March 16, 2009 at 8:57 am)Giff Wrote: The "we have no free will" theory is not based on anything but assupmtion and imagination. Which also religion is based on.
The Free Will/determinism dichotomy has actually been around for some time,as in a couple of thousand years. So far,no one has managed to dismiss either position in in a sentence.Or indeed falsify either claim.Possibly because metaphysical positions are not falsifiable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
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RE: 'choosing' thoughts.
March 17, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Until I know of any evidence for free will I assume it doesn't exist though. The positive claim of free will needs evidence...no free will is a default...I'm not going to believe in being able to be free of physics without any real evidence! Whether that's the more random physics of indeterminism or the totally predetermined physics of determinism.
As I have said...determinism makes free will IMPOSSIBLE...but indeterminism just makes it possible as far as I know. I still know of no evidence of free will and don't see how on earth indeterminism implies it.
EvF
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