Pat gets mad

[Tiberius]

[Napoléon]

Well I'm sorry pad, but I think it's you who is ignorant to what Islam actually is. Are you not aware that it's every muslim's duty to wage jihad?

Nappy, have you actually read the Q'uran? I have.How much time have you spent at university studying Islam? (I spent about a year) How many Muslim countries have you actually visited,let alone lived in?

Bits and bobs. I haven't read the whole thing because those bit's I have read just seem mumbo jumbo and distorted. Don't see how this is relevant.
Why would I want to spend a year studying Islam? It's boring as hell, and again, I don't need to study every single page in it to have an opinion on it. I think I know enough. (but again, if you think I'm wrong please by all means STATE WHY, because so far we have another person asserting that I'm somehow ignorant without actually demonstrating HOW, thanks).
And seen as I see muslims on pretty much a daily basis, living in birmingham for 18 years, one of the largest muslim communities in europe, I would humorously say that I live in a muslim country (ok maybe city). Also someone in my family was in a relationship with a muslim girl for 6 years and was on the verge of muslim marraige, someone I knew very well even visiting her home country Iran. You see, I can argue from authority too. None of what you just said is relevant.

Yes, I'm an ignorant man,but less than most non Muslims about Islam.Sadly, with your fatuous comment about jihad,you show your own willful ignorance.In context that means you are unwilling to listen or learn from anyone who may know what he's is talking about if he differs from your prejudices..

Oh please. Do not take me for a fucking fool. You think somehow that what I said was wrong? Well? Fucking demonstrate it. How on earth was my comment about jihad fatuous? It IS every muslims duty to undertake jihad to the best of my knowledge, and if YOU say I'm wrong then YOU provide some reasoning as to why. You can't just throw out calling someone fatuous and not back it up, that in itself is fucking fatuous.
Then you go on to say I'm unwilling to listen and learn? HA!
Maybe if you actually provided something I could listen to with regards to the video or anything I have said then that would be good. Because like I've said, you are just asserting things without proving it. You sound an awful lot like some self righteous christian.
If you can back up what you say and prove me wrong on my jihad comment then I'll accept it. So please go ahead.

If if you ask him nicely, Rayaan may take the time to explain the meaning of "jihad" to you. I can't be bothered wasting my time .


I have nothing further to say to on this topic.

What? You're leaving? Right when we were in the middle of an argument? I win by default then
As it happens Rayaan hasn't expressed to me any contention over my use of the word Jihad. Only you. If you supposedly can't be bothered then don't put your fingers on the keyboard in the first place.

Seriously Paddy, I at least thought that if you were going to assert someone as ignorant then you wouldn't be ignorant enough to think that you could just say that, then run away and not back it up. I am dissapoint.

[Rayaan]

[Minimalist]

[Judas BentHer]

Note his address regarding "Islamic fanatics". No, not "All Muslims..." It's a particular kind of Muslim PC (PC? Oh, that's nifty. Not Political Correctness. Not by a long shot. ) talks about in his videos. And if rational reasonable peaceful Muslims and non-Muslims don't get mad about Islamic fanatics, then the problem isn't Pat Condell.

*edit*

Pat Condell - Godless Comdey Site

[Napoléon]

I do have a slight contention against your use of the word "Jihad." I just haven't replied yet but that doesn't mean that I agree with you.

No problem Rayaan, I was just suggesting to padraic that if HE isn't going to contend what I'm saying then he should shut the fuck up

In Arabic, jihad means a "striving" or a "struggle" which applies to any effort exerted by anyone. For example, a student trying to pass a course in college is a jihad. Trying to quit smoking is a jihad. Trying to quit a bad habit is a jihad. Fighting against an oppressive ruler is a jihad. Trying to lose 20 pounds through diet and exercise is a jihad. So, it's anything which require an effort over a course of time. And the list goes on.

The point is that Jihad doesn't mean "holy war," but a "struggle" toward a moral, intellectual, and a spiritual improvement. The word does include a struggle in the military sense, but it has a wider connotation and embraces every kind of striving, and Jihad doesn't have to be a violent one. There are also non-violent forms of Jihad which can be done with pen, tongue, hands, the media, internet, and in many other ways which are not necessarily harmful to society.

I was never under any illusion that jihad meant anything other than what you said. Please demonstrate where I said otherwise. I'm not sure why you think I meant that jihad means exclusively holy war.

The Arabic word for "war" is "harb" or "qital." This is the violent form of Jihad, as mentioned in certain passages of the Quran, which is only allowed for the purpose of self-defense such as to protect our family and property from an invasion. It is not allowed against ordinary people who are living peacefully (whether they are atheists or not), as the Quran says, "Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, Allah does not allow you to harm them." (Surah 4:90). Therefore, fighting is permitted only when others are waging a war against us. We are not allowed to kill or fight anyone just to "convert" them to Islam because that is not the meaning of Jihad nor in agreement with the Quranic verses.

Now, here's a more clear and logical analysis of the issue: What Does Islam Say About "Forcing People in Religion?"

Really?
Here's a couple of verses which go against that.
-Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This would basically be saying that if you don't submit then you must be fought. Seems like conversion tactics to me. What is your interpretation?

-Qur'an (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..."

Fight anyone who doesn't do what we want them to do. Hmmm, more of the same? Your thoughts?

-Qur'an (9:11) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion"

Oh, so if they do decide to 'convert' then they are fine? Well isn't that just wonderful. Silly old me for thinking Islam was a spiteful and hateful religion.


You contend my use of the word jihad but haven't said why it was wrong. You gave me a definition for jihad, but I don't see how my original comment differs from what you have said. You said yourself that jihad has certain military connotations, and that it CAN be used in the context of 'fighting'.

The quotes above say to fight those who do not submit. A fight in your own words can be called a jihad. So how was my original statement incorrect?

You may have other verses which say something different but then that highlights the clear contradictions in your own holy book, and how interpretations can differ.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Seriously Paddy, I at least thought that if you were going to assert someone as ignorant then you wouldn't be ignorant enough to think that you could just say that, then run away and not back it up. I am dissapoint.

Really? Gee, I don't know how I'll live with myself.

When I have nothing further to say, I prefer to say nothing. I've made my position on the matter as clear as I can and have no interest in a point-scoring debate.

I do not conflate winning an argument with necessarily being right. Could not care less if I win or lose an argument,I cease when I want to,and have no interest in your personal expectations.

[Minimalist]

Seriously Paddy, I at least thought that if you were going to assert someone as ignorant then you wouldn't be ignorant enough to think that you could just say that, then run away and not back it up. I am dissapoint.

Really? Gee, I don't know how I'll live with myself.

[Napoléon]

[Rayaan]