Evidence for Jesus outside the Bible?

[The Grand Nudger]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[edk]

There are lots of people who call themselves Christian but who don't even know the requirements of being a Christian. There are many muslims who do not adhere to the tenants of Islam.

So now you know. It's lucky I'm here isn't it?

No Christian is a true Christian then. Too many conflicting rules.

[Hannah]

There are lots of people who call themselves Christian but who don't even know the requirements of being a Christian. There are many muslims who do not adhere to the tenants of Islam.

So now you know. It's lucky I'm here isn't it?

No Christian is a true Christian then. Too many conflicting rules.

No Christian is a true Christian? What makes you say that? I never said that. How did you arrive at that from what I said?

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

You know your own tricks best.

[DeistPaladin]

On my list of videos to make is one where I ask what is meant by the "historical (mundane, mortal) Jesus"?

It seems like arguing over a "historical Superman". A "Superman" who couldn't really fly, leap tall buildings in a single bound or move faster than a speeding bullet? Then he wouldn't be Superman, would he? The supernatural powers are so much a part of his identity that if you take them away, the story bears so little resemblance as to be about a completely different person.

The same is true with Jesus. Nearly every anecdote in the patchwork yarn we call the "Gospels" are punctuated by (if not centered around) a miracle of some sort. Even the ones that don't mention a miracle are so unbelievable that some superhuman feat is implied. Take the "temple tantrum" at the beginning of John and at the end of Mark (?). The temple is a huge complex. Yet Jesus single handedly marched through the whole temple, turning over all the tables and throwing out the merchants? A mortal man would just be wrestled to the floor after turning the first table over. How about when the people of his home town become an angry mob, carrying him to the cliff side to cast him off. Yet he escapes their grip? How could he escape short of having the ability to turn invisible or teleport away?

What is left once we strip away the miracles and superhuman feats that we can still call "Jesus"?

There's his ministry which Matthew tells us "spread like wildfire" not just in Judea but the surrounding countries as well. People came from all over to be healed by him and hear what he had to say. Wealthy and powerful individuals sought him out. Herod Antipas wondered if Jesus was the second coming of John the Baptist. It might be possible for a cult leader to establish such a following. He might be enough of a con artist to pretend to be healing people. But if this is so, why is there such a dearth of evidence for this earth shattering political and religious movement that had the established Jewish clergy so tied up in knots that they met on Passover Eve to conspire against him?

It seems clear that the success of his ministry is greatly exaggerated by Matthew and the other Gospel authors.

OK, what about his teachings? Well, it's hard to say what those teachings were. Jesus, unlike many other theologians, wrote nothing down. Testimonies about what he taught, aside from the "take and eat" passage in Paul, can only be found in the Gospels (highly dubious sources considering we're discounting the miracle claims as lies and embellishments). Even these are rooted in OT teachings. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" appears in Leviticus. Additionally, the plethora of wildly different Christianities, differing on such fundamental issues like "how many gods are there", is testimony to the fact that if Jesus existed, he didn't make his teachings clear to his followers.

So we discount the miracles, we can surmise from the dearth of contemporary testimony that the ministry didn't grab anyone's attention at the time outside his small group of followers, and we know nothing of what he really taught. What's left?

Some guy named "Yeshua" who lived in 1st century Judea? That was a common name.
Another corner doom-crier? There was one on every corner at that time.
A self-styled end-times preacher? Regarded as the Messiah de jour by his followers? They abounded at the time.

If the above three qualities are enough to constitute "THE HISTORICAL JESUS", there are probably several to choose from.

[Minimalist]

....which goes to show your lack of understanding of the Christian faith, which I would like to reiterate I am nolonger a follower of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

All genuine Christians would willingly die for their faith...now and then.

Again, Hannah, ( as is your pattern) you take the story that these shitwits wrote at face value and ignore reality.

The story of Nero and the xtians appears ONLY in Tacitus' Annals and no other ancient author ( xtian or Roman) seems to know anything about it. Even that notorious xtian liar, Eusebius, makes no reference at all to Nero's alleged persecution of xtians as written by Tacitus. How odd for a man who claimed to be writing the Ecclesiastical History.

Snippets of what was later passed off as Tacitus' writings appear in the 5th century Chronica of Sulpicius Severus but without attribution to Tacitus nor reference to his work. Severus also leaves out the doctrinal part about Pilate the ( incorrectly titled) procurator who supposedly crucified christ.

You are far too gullible when reading religious literature.


As far as the ludicrous assertion about xtians facing death goes....

Pliny notes otherwise:

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

You've been watching too many fucking movies, Hannah.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Are you so thick you cannot understand how someone can believe in the past existence of Jesus but not believe in his divinity?

I don't think anyone here makes that claim.

It's entirely possible ,that in the first century Judea,there was a wondering preacher. (Not Rabbi,this was over a century before the beginning of the Rabbinic tradition) His name may well have been something like Yeshua/Yoshua bar Yusuf. The name Jesus is the Latinised version of the Greek Iesous.

ALSO that he had a small band of followers,as was common.

PLUS that he was executed by the Romans for sedition,like THOUSANDS of Jews during the Roman occupation.

PLUS. it's likely he would have had miracles ascribed to him This was an ancient tradition,the Jews expected their prophets and holy men to perform miracles.

The existence of an historical Jesus is possible, plausible,even likely. What is far less plausible is what has been written about Jesus, his life and teachings.

The EARLIEST writings in the New Testament are Epistles of Saul,written at least a human generation after the death of Jesus. There is nothing I have seen which allows me to accept the New Testament is anything more than the mythology of Christianity.

By all,means believe in an historical Jesus, who was a great moral teacher. But,please don't get your panties all out of focus if you are ridiculed by a bunch of skeptics and atheists who dismiss your position as faith based.IE belief without evidence.

PS Is a genuine (true) Christian anything like a genuine (true) Scotsman? Look it up.

[Hannah]

Quote:
Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ. end.

What's your point? It says here that they gave Christians the choice between denying Jesus was their lord and living...and refusing to deny him and dying. He even says that real Christians who have faith in Jesus cannot deny their faith. I repeat, what is your point? This is exactly what I have said. Fake or half hearted Christians will choose life and faithful Christians will choose death. Your point?

[Minimalist]

It's entirely possible ,that in the first century Judea,there was a wondering preacher.

Oh, I wonder wonder who, be-do-do who
Who wrote the book of love

Sorry, couldn't resist!

[Hannah]

[quote='padraic' pid='162781' dateline='1312675898']

PS Is a genuine (true) Christian anything like a genuine (true) Scotsman? Look it up.

Quoting you in my volcano thread.....'Interesting; I can't dispute that. I said only that Judaism was not monthotheistic BEFORE Exodus. In his recent book,"The Bible Unearthed" Israel Finkelstein reveals that he and others have yfound THOUSANDS of female deity figures all over Israel,dating to about 700bce. These finds indicate that although monotheism may have been the official religion by that time, many people still worshiped the old gods. (Obviously not true jews)'.

[Shell B]

If there was no Jesus, who created his character?

If there was no Zeus, who created his character?

If there was no Odin, who created his character?

If there was no Adi Parashakti, who created her character?

If there was no Hercules, who created his character?

The fact is that you can trace some of these back pretty far, but we have no way of knowing who actually "created" any of these "characters," who I presume you deem fictional. What is the difference between any one of these characters and Jesus? Please don't say that Jesus had followers because some of these ladies and gentlemen did/do too.