Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.

[The Grand Nudger]

The books of Acts and Luke demonstrate this.

The books of Acts and Luke demonstrate the existence of the books of Acts and Luke. The ground under my feet isn't exactly trembling at your rock solid case for the existence of books.

[Statler Waldorf]

The books of Acts and Luke demonstrate the existence of the books of Acts and Luke. The ground under my feet isn't exactly trembling at your rock solid case for the existence of books.

The books of Acts and Luke are historical documents there bub.

[The Grand Nudger]

Prove it.

[Statler Waldorf]

Prove it.

Do you have any proof that is as well preserved as teh New Testament and that dates back to the same time period proving that Luke's writings are in fact lies? If you do not, then we are forced to historically accept the accounts given by the historian Luke.

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, lol, and the Necronomicon was written by the Mad Arab. So, no evidence then?

[DeistPaladin]

Utter garbage, it’s called Whitehead’s hypothesis, there is a historical consensus that the Christian Reformation directly lead to modern science. The form of Democratic Republic we are so familiar with today was created by John Calvin for church governments in the 16th century. You can believe your own deluded version of history if you’d like, but historians disagree with you.

Pure grade A 100% no preservatives added bull crap.

The Bible makes it clear that peasants should obey their king (Romans 13:1-2) and slaves should obey their masters (numerous passages). No idea who these "historians" are but something tells me they're Christian apologists.

The same evidence that has convinced the academic community that philosophers such as Aristotle and Socrates ever existed, we have their writings.

Plato and Socrates never performed miracles. I hold the disciples and apostles to a higher standard. ECREE.

The only problem for you is that the New Testament is far better preserved and we have far more manuscripts of it than anything we have written by Aristotle and Socrates. The Book of Acts written by Luke details many of the disciples’ persecution after Jesus’ ascension. Do you also deny that Aristotle and Socrates ever existed or do you only apply your skepticism to concepts you don’t like?

It's not a matter of liking. Mythology is mythology and history is history. To use the Bible as a "historical document" but the Iliad is just a story is special pleading.

I hope one day humans live in a truly rational society where anyone who holds up the Bible and, with a straight face, calls it "historical documentation" is simply and rightfully laughed out of the room.

The books of Acts and Luke demonstrate this.

How about Jesus? Was the stone of his empty tomb rolled away when Mary arrived with her spices?

The women went to see the tomb, but an angel had rolled the stone away from the tomb sometime prior to the women’s arrival at the tomb. The angel was sitting on the stone when the women arrived.

Matthew 28:1-5 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

[Statler Waldorf]

The Bible makes it clear that peasants should obey their king (Romans 13:1-2) and slaves should obey their masters (numerous passages). No idea who these "historians" are but something tells me they're Christian apologists.

Not sure what peasants, slaves, and kings have to do with science but I assure you that Whitehead was not a Christian Apologist and neither is Richard Dawkins for that matter but they do know a thing or two about the history of science and both agree that the Christian Reformation was responsible for the birth of modern science.

Plato and Socrates never performed miracles. I hold the disciples and apostles to a higher standard. ECREE.

Special pleading. Go ahead and hold them to a different standard though, their writings are far better preserved than any other so they already pass that higher standard.

It's not a matter of liking. Mythology is mythology and history is history. To use the Bible as a "historical document" but the Iliad is just a story is special pleading.

Begging the question, you have defined scripture as mythology to try and prove that scripture is mythology. Luke is a historian of high regard.

I hope one day humans live in a truly rational society

Considering you hold to beliefs that violate the principle of sufficient reason you would not make the cut in any such society there my irrational friend.

So much for rational integrity, I am glad I didn’t get my hopes for a rational response.

Matthew 28:1-5 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

Yup.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, the Reformation aided greatly, by breaking the stranglehold of christian authoritarianism. You guys were so busy executing each other (John Calvin ftw!) you forgot about all those damned heretics and their science (nearly).

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are."- John Calvin, regarding the execution of a scientist, by burning at the stake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Servetus

[Statler Waldorf]

Yes, the Reformation aided greatly, by breaking the stranglehold of christian authoritarianism. You guys were so busy executing each other (John Calvin ftw!) you forgot about all those damned heretics and their science.

Can you please name these atheistic scientists you seem to allude existed? Who did John Calvin execute?

[DeistPaladin]

Not sure what peasants, slaves, and kings have to do with science

Christianity didn't create democracy. Democracy came to be in spite of Christianity.

but I assure you that Whitehead was not a Christian Apologist and neither is Richard Dawkins for that matter but they do know a thing or two about the history of science and both agree that the Christian Reformation was responsible for the birth of modern science.

The only thing the Reformation did was split up the power of Christianity, giving scientists the room to maneuver. At first, they had to tread lightly but over time Christianity's power waned enough that we could eventually have the Age of Enlightenment.

Special pleading. Go ahead and hold them to a different standard though, their writings are far better preserved than any other so they already pass that higher standard.

The burden of proof is directly proportional to how extraordinary the claims are. Mundane claims are usually accepted at face value. Extraordinary claims are subjected to proportional levels of scrutiny and skepticism.

I'd venture you play by the same rules in all areas of life aside from your religion. If I told you I had lunch with a local friend, you'd accept the claim. If I told you I had lunch with my dead father who'd come back to life to tell me about the hereafter, you'd demand a great deal of proof before even considering the claim.

Begging the question, you have defined scripture as mythology to try and prove that scripture is mythology. Luke is a historian of high regard.

How many historical documents contain accounts of zombies, faith healing, demons and magic?

Luke is held in high regard as a historian by whom?

Do you regard the Iliad as a historical document?

Yup.

Did you read that passage? Your answer was a clear case of fail.