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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 7, 2011 at 9:05 am
Sup Object, you could of course read through the pages of this thread for a fairly exhaustive list of problems with this sort of argument.
We constantly hear the claim that others beliefs are self contradictory and christian beliefs are not, but any amount of time spent reading just about any thread on this forum would show this to be plainly false. Stop asserting things and show them to be the case. If you could do this, if everyone else's god were false, it doesn't default to christ. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You have an axiom that states that god exists, good for you. I have an axiom that states that grape jelly created the universe. And?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 7, 2011 at 9:16 am
(October 6, 2011 at 7:39 pm)objectivitees Wrote:
Any time a definition of God is used that differs from the biblical (or what i prefer to call the ontological definition) description of God, it can be demonstrated that the definition itself is self contradictory. Allah cannot be used (to borrow your example) because Allah is by definition both Good and Evil. (go ahead and ask a devout Muslim) If God is both good and evil, then one must give up all rationality in their argument, a problem not encountered in the presuppositional (and rational) defense of the God of the Bible. It is interesting to note however, Muslims were first to utilize this kind of reasoning in defense of faith with respect to the "existence" of God, with the "Kalaam" cosmological argument, but never applied the same kind of rigorous logic to their own definition of God.
Christians, Muslims and other cultists can always pick apart the beliefs of another faith with the same precision that atheists apply but the light goes out when they're asked to apply the same reasoning to their own faith.
You see the Muslim god as self-contradictory but I'm guessing you have no problem with the Triune god who is three separate, distinct persons and yet all three are part of the same god being?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:06 pm
(October 7, 2011 at 9:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You have an axiom that states that god exists, good for you. I have an axiom that states that grape jelly created the universe. And?
And your axiom is irrational.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm
(October 8, 2011 at 1:06 pm)objectivitees Wrote: (October 7, 2011 at 9:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You have an axiom that states that god exists, good for you. I have an axiom that states that grape jelly created the universe. And?
And your axiom is irrational.
no more so then yours sir.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:10 pm
(October 8, 2011 at 1:06 pm)objectivitees Wrote: (October 7, 2011 at 9:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You have an axiom that states that god exists, good for you. I have an axiom that states that grape jelly created the universe. And?
And your axiom is irrational.
And so is yours.
It amazes me that people still believe in the abrahamic god, it is so obviously a bunch of baloney.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:14 pm
(This post was last modified: October 8, 2011 at 1:16 pm by objectivitees.)
(October 7, 2011 at 9:16 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: You see the Muslim god as self-contradictory but I'm guessing you have no problem with the Triune god who is three separate, distinct persons and yet all three are part of the same god being?
Actually, I concisely demonstrated the Muslim god as self-contradictory, and if you doubted me, I further challenged you to ask any devout Muslim if he/she did not define their god as both good and evil.
As to your guess concerning my beliefs, (if indeed what will probably be your straw man definition of what you think are my beliefs are anywhere near accurate) you'll have to demonstrate for me the contradiction you imply exists before i can comment.
(October 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm)5thHorseman Wrote: (October 8, 2011 at 1:06 pm)objectivitees Wrote: (October 7, 2011 at 9:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You have an axiom that states that god exists, good for you. I have an axiom that states that grape jelly created the universe. And?
And your axiom is irrational.
no more so then yours sir.
Oh really? So you also believe grape jelly created the universe? Defend your proposition.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:26 pm
(October 8, 2011 at 1:14 pm)objectivitees Wrote: (October 7, 2011 at 9:16 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: You see the Muslim god as self-contradictory but I'm guessing you have no problem with the Triune god who is three separate, distinct persons and yet all three are part of the same god being?
Actually, I concisely demonstrated the Muslim god as self-contradictory, and if you doubted me, I further challenged you to ask any devout Muslim if he/she did not define their god as both good and evil.
As to your guess concerning my beliefs, (if indeed what will probably be your straw man definition of what you think are my beliefs are anywhere near accurate) you'll have to demonstrate for me the contradiction you imply exists before i can comment.
(October 8, 2011 at 1:09 pm)5thHorseman Wrote: (October 8, 2011 at 1:06 pm)objectivitees Wrote: (October 7, 2011 at 9:05 am)Rhythm Wrote: You have an axiom that states that god exists, good for you. I have an axiom that states that grape jelly created the universe. And?
And your axiom is irrational.
no more so then yours sir.
Oh really? So you also believe grape jelly created the universe? Defend your proposition.
You should defend your's first, as you made the irrational claim first.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:29 pm
(October 8, 2011 at 1:26 pm)5thHorseman Wrote: You should defend your's first, as you made the irrational claim first.
Ummm, no I didn't. I was responding to Rhythm's claim. Pay attention, then maybe you can keep up.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:31 pm
(October 8, 2011 at 1:14 pm)objectivitees Wrote: Oh really? So you also believe grape jelly created the universe? Defend your proposition.
Lets get this straight.
I do not think that grape jelly ceated the universe.
The idea is silly.
But then so is the god idea.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Van Tillian/Clarkian Presuppositional Apologetics.
October 8, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Also I didn't say the grape jelly created the universe, do keep up.
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