Objective Morality?

[Minimalist]

If there were a god he would have a better class of followers.

[lucent]

Actually, personal testimony is evidence. So again, it must be accepted or rejected on the basis of his testimony.

A God who creates a Universe and lets his creatures suffer and perish with no intervention or plan is immoral. In such a Universe, there is no justice, and evil may reign freely. There is no hope there, and since the key piece of knowledge and meaning is missing, ie God, they all labor under false and delusional pretenses.

Considering God personally intervened so that anyone who calls upon His Sons name could be saved and have eternal life, I am interested to know how He is in any sense a dead beat dad.

The grounds of his testimony alone...lol, no, no. Let's see some evidence.

Any god lacking the claimed attributes of your own, and actively not engaging in the same sorts of activities is a wonderful god indeed. See, amusingly a dead beat dad is exactly how I would describe the god of the babble. The deists obviously makes no claim to fatherhood, nor does it command the respect and love of a father. You entered your own god into that arena. No sense projecting your beliefs into areas where they don't belong.

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We're all human and imperfect, just like you. Many of us react badly to the extreme hostility and ridicule heaped on to us by atheists..it is the human thing to do, but not the Godly thing obviously. I notice myself getting snarky at times, and I apologize for that. It's something I have to work on.

If there were a god he would have a better class of followers.

[DeistPaladin]

Actually, I don't watch the 700 club. I found the video on youtube, and it doesn't matter one iota who produced it.

I assume you at least watched the video? You found that piece to be credible and the testimony convincing enough to smugly present it? That's why I found no point in discussing anything with you.

The way your question is framed, asking why something from a Christian standpoint is *evil*, implicates God as a moral authority and requires a biblical explanation. Asking why I think it is wrong, personally, is a entirely different question. If you can construct a coherent question without the use of Ad Homs, I'll be inclined to answer you.

The question was already constructed. Why is love evil when the body parts are similar?

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Poor Waldork...still trying to convince the court that his invisible sky-daddy is an expert witness.

OVERRULED!

...and Yahweh is held in contempt of court for failing to show up.

Luckily for him, he won't have to worry about any fines or serving time for it, on account that a non-existent being can't be served any citation.

[5thHorseman]

'It is also socially destructive..history has shown when you approve of homosexualiy, paedophilia is not far behind.' lucent.


Your a horrible little shit, and your full of it. There is no correlation between wanting a dick up you arse, and wanting to touch kids you nasty narrow minded bitch.

[lucent]

Sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but there is a connection..

http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L46.pdf

You might want to read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinsey-Crimes-Cons...0966662407

http://us2000.org/cfmc/Pedophilia.pdf

Here are some facts..

•The Journal of Homosexuality recently published a special double-issue entitled, "Male Intergenerational Intimacy," containing many articles portraying sex between men and minor boys as loving relationships. One article said parents should look upon the pedophile who loves their son "not as a rival or competitor, not as a theft of their property, but as a partner in the boy's upbringing, someone to be welcomed into their home."

•In 1995 the homosexual magazine "Guide" said, "We can be proud that the gay movement has been home to the few voices who have had the courage to say out loud that children are naturally sexual" and "deserve the right to sexual expression with whoever they choose. …" The article went on to say: "Instead of fearing being labeled pedophiles, we must proudly proclaim that sex is good, including children's sexuality … we must do it for the children's sake."

•Larry Kramer, the founder of ACT-UP, a noted homosexual activist group, wrote in his book, "Report from the Holocaust: The Making of an AIDS Activist": "In those instances where children do have sex with their homosexual elders, be they teachers or anyone else, I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it."

•In a study of advertisements in the influential homosexual newspaper, The Advocate, Reisman found ads for a "Penetrable Boy Doll … available in three provocative positions. She also found that the number of erotic boy images in each issue of The Advocate averaged 14.

•Homosexual newspapers and travel publications advertise prominently for countries where boy prostitution is heavy, such as Burma, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Thailand.


The Gay Report, published by homosexual researchers Jay and Young in 1979, revealed that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger.5 (5. K. Jay and A. Young, The Gay Report (New York: Summit Books, 1979), p. 275. )

Although homosexuals account for less than two percent of the population. they constitute about a third of child molesters.6 (6. K. Freund and R.I. Watson, "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles Among Sex Offenders Against Children: An Exploratory Study," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (Spring 1992): 3443, cited in "The Problem of Pedophilia," op. cit. Also, K. Freund and R.I. Watson, "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984): 197, cited in NARTH Fact Sheet. ) Further, as noted by the Encino, Calif.-based National Association for research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), "since homosexual pedophiles victimize far more children than do heterosexual pedophiles, it is estimated that approximately 80 percent or pedophile victims are boys who have been molested by adultmales.7 (7. Thomas Schmidt, Straight and Narrow? Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate (Downers Grove, IU.: Intervarsity Press), p. 114, cited in "The Problem of Pedophilia, op. cit., p. 2. )

A nationwide investigation of child molestation in the Boy Scouts from 1971 to 1991 revealed that more than 2,000 boys reported molestations by adult Scout leaders. (Note: The Scouts, who have 150,000 Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters, ban hundreds of men each year from scouting out of concern that they might abuse boys.)8 (8. Patrick Boyle, Scout's Honor (Rocklin, Calif.: Prima Publishing, 1994), p. 3l6. )

A study of Canadian pedophiles has shown that 30 percent of those studied admitted to having engaged In homosexual acts as adults, and 91 percent of the molesters of non-familial boys admitted to no lifetime sexual contact other than homosexual.9 (9. W. L. Marshall, et al., "Early onset and deviant sexuality in child molesters," Journal of interpersonal Violence 6 (1991): 323-336, cited in "Pedophilia: The Part of Homosexuality They Don't Want You to see," Colorado for Family Values Report, Vol. 14, March 1994. )

Judith A. Reisman, Ph.D., and Charles B. Johnson, Ph.D., conducted a content study of the personal ads in the Advocate, the national gay and lesbian newsmagazine and discovered that "chickens," a common term for underage boys sought for sex, were widely solicited. Many of the advertisements in the magazine solicited boys and teens from within a larger pool of prostitution ads.10 (10. Judith A. Reisman, Ph.D., "A Content Analysis of 'The Advocate,"' unpublished manuscript p. 18, quoted in "Pedophilia: The Part of Homosexuality They Don't WantYou to See," ibid. ) The authors also note a statement from a book review by homosexual activist Larry Kramer that the work, "like much canonized male homosexual literature, involves sexually predatory white men on the prowl for dark-skinned boys to gratify them.11 (11. From "Lany Kramer's Reading List," The Advocate, January 24, 1995, p. 99, cited in "Status Report," The Reisman & Johnson Report of Partner Solicitation Characteristics as a Reflection of More Sexual Orientation and the Threat to Children, First Principles Press, January l995.)

'It is also socially destructive..history has shown when you approve of homosexualiy, paedophilia is not far behind.' lucent.


Your a horrible little shit, and your full of it. There is no correlation between wanting a dick up you arse, and wanting to touch kids you nasty narrow minded bitch.

[Zen Badger]

---

Sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but there is a connection..

http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L46.pdf

You might want to read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Kinsey-Crimes-Cons...0966662407

http://us2000.org/cfmc/Pedophilia.pdf

Here are some facts..

•The Journal of Homosexuality recently published a special double-issue entitled, "Male Intergenerational Intimacy," containing many articles portraying sex between men and minor boys as loving relationships. One article said parents should look upon the pedophile who loves their son "not as a rival or competitor, not as a theft of their property, but as a partner in the boy's upbringing, someone to be welcomed into their home."

•In 1995 the homosexual magazine "Guide" said, "We can be proud that the gay movement has been home to the few voices who have had the courage to say out loud that children are naturally sexual" and "deserve the right to sexual expression with whoever they choose. …" The article went on to say: "Instead of fearing being labeled pedophiles, we must proudly proclaim that sex is good, including children's sexuality … we must do it for the children's sake."

•Larry Kramer, the founder of ACT-UP, a noted homosexual activist group, wrote in his book, "Report from the Holocaust: The Making of an AIDS Activist": "In those instances where children do have sex with their homosexual elders, be they teachers or anyone else, I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it."

•In a study of advertisements in the influential homosexual newspaper, The Advocate, Reisman found ads for a "Penetrable Boy Doll … available in three provocative positions. She also found that the number of erotic boy images in each issue of The Advocate averaged 14.

•Homosexual newspapers and travel publications advertise prominently for countries where boy prostitution is heavy, such as Burma, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Thailand.


The Gay Report, published by homosexual researchers Jay and Young in 1979, revealed that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16 to 19 years of age or younger.5 (5. K. Jay and A. Young, The Gay Report (New York: Summit Books, 1979), p. 275. )

Although homosexuals account for less than two percent of the population. they constitute about a third of child molesters.6 (6. K. Freund and R.I. Watson, "The Proportions of Heterosexual and Homosexual Pedophiles Among Sex Offenders Against Children: An Exploratory Study," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 18 (Spring 1992): 3443, cited in "The Problem of Pedophilia," op. cit. Also, K. Freund and R.I. Watson, "Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality," Journal of Sex and Marital Therapy 10 (Fall 1984): 197, cited in NARTH Fact Sheet. ) Further, as noted by the Encino, Calif.-based National Association for research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), "since homosexual pedophiles victimize far more children than do heterosexual pedophiles, it is estimated that approximately 80 percent or pedophile victims are boys who have been molested by adultmales.7 (7. Thomas Schmidt, Straight and Narrow? Compassion and Clarity in the Homosexuality Debate (Downers Grove, IU.: Intervarsity Press), p. 114, cited in "The Problem of Pedophilia, op. cit., p. 2. )

A nationwide investigation of child molestation in the Boy Scouts from 1971 to 1991 revealed that more than 2,000 boys reported molestations by adult Scout leaders. (Note: The Scouts, who have 150,000 Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters, ban hundreds of men each year from scouting out of concern that they might abuse boys.)8 (8. Patrick Boyle, Scout's Honor (Rocklin, Calif.: Prima Publishing, 1994), p. 3l6. )

A study of Canadian pedophiles has shown that 30 percent of those studied admitted to having engaged In homosexual acts as adults, and 91 percent of the molesters of non-familial boys admitted to no lifetime sexual contact other than homosexual.9 (9. W. L. Marshall, et al., "Early onset and deviant sexuality in child molesters," Journal of interpersonal Violence 6 (1991): 323-336, cited in "Pedophilia: The Part of Homosexuality They Don't Want You to see," Colorado for Family Values Report, Vol. 14, March 1994. )

Judith A. Reisman, Ph.D., and Charles B. Johnson, Ph.D., conducted a content study of the personal ads in the Advocate, the national gay and lesbian newsmagazine and discovered that "chickens," a common term for underage boys sought for sex, were widely solicited. Many of the advertisements in the magazine solicited boys and teens from within a larger pool of prostitution ads.10 (10. Judith A. Reisman, Ph.D., "A Content Analysis of 'The Advocate,"' unpublished manuscript p. 18, quoted in "Pedophilia: The Part of Homosexuality They Don't WantYou to See," ibid. ) The authors also note a statement from a book review by homosexual activist Larry Kramer that the work, "like much canonized male homosexual literature, involves sexually predatory white men on the prowl for dark-skinned boys to gratify them.11 (11. From "Lany Kramer's Reading List," The Advocate, January 24, 1995, p. 99, cited in "Status Report," The Reisman & Johnson Report of Partner Solicitation Characteristics as a Reflection of More Sexual Orientation and the Threat to Children, First Principles Press, January l995.)

'It is also socially destructive..history has shown when you approve of homosexualiy, paedophilia is not far behind.' lucent.


Your a horrible little shit, and your full of it. There is no correlation between wanting a dick up you arse, and wanting to touch kids you nasty narrow minded bitch.

---

Interesting, I found this as well

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source...YX5QzZVF5Q

[KichigaiNeko]

Yep..the 'Old story of using Sex as a means to pump up a pathetic ego to make the paedophile feel important' know it well.

[toro]

First: studies conducted in the 1990’s and earlier were conducted in a time where homosexuality was considered deviant behavior and equated with pedophilia by both society at large and the psychiatric community. This has changed. Therefore, quoting articles from this time period may be similar to me quoting articles about the ether and the speed of light.

The journal of homosexuality has an impact factor of 0.59, indicating the only 59% of all journal articles published in it are ever cited once. Further, the special issue you quote was published in 1990 and recently reissued. That is not recent, that is nearly 22 years ago. This journal issue was guest edited by three members of the Journal of Pedophaelia, a journal published by pedophiles, not scholars. The articles were discussions, not studies. The list goes on.

In 1995 the homosexual magazine "Guide" said, "We can be proud that the gay movement has been home to the few voices who have had the courage to say out loud that children are naturally sexual" and "deserve the right to sexual expression with whoever they choose. …" The article went on to say: "Instead of fearing being labeled pedophiles, we must proudly proclaim that sex is good, including children's sexuality … we must do it for the children's sake."

OK… “Christian Boy-love Forum” exists. Ergo, all Christians are pedophiles?

Larry Kramer, the founder of ACT-UP, a noted homosexual activist group, wrote in his book, "Report from the Holocaust: The Making of an AIDS Activist": "In those instances where children do have sex with their homosexual elders, be they teachers or anyone else, I submit that often, very often, the child desires the activity, and perhaps even solicits it."

OK, just to get rid of all the other pieces of evidence similar to this. How many priests have had sexual relations with children and pubescents? How many ministers have been found having sex with hookers and doing drugs? This is an opinion, and should not be equated with factual relationships as no evidence is given.

In a study of advertisements in the influential homosexual newspaper, The Advocate, Reisman found ads for a "Penetrable Boy Doll … available in three provocative positions. She also found that the number of erotic boy images in each issue of The Advocate averaged 14.

Your Reisman citation was not limited to the Advocate, it also included something called the gay yellow pages. The analysis was done on issues between 1967 and 1988 and published in 1995, see above. Further, this study is from a Ph.D. which I will point out as someone who is just receiving his, is much easier to finish than it is to publish articles in peer reviewed journals. Also, it has been heavily criticized by members of the psychological community as lacking any significant numerical analysis. Further, she is not a published author in academic journals, but rather a book author that belongs to a religious organization. She also based much of her analysis on sexual behavior correlation statistics in the Kinsey report, a survey which has since been discredited as improperly conducted and misleading regarding sexual orientations by APA.

While certain statistics and points she brings up are important, much of her points in her dissertation and books are simply opinions she has and misleading information (i.e. not giving proper definitions of the locations within the magazines where these were found, including only partial definitions of laws, etc.).

Homosexual newspapers and travel publications advertise prominently for countries where boy prostitution is heavy, such as Burma, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Thailand.

So do other magazines.

Before I end, I would like to point out that you have simply cut and paste this very post, word-for-word from some website, as have numerous other posters on the internet, without conducting any critical analysis of it on your own.

While there may indeed be an increased correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia, the difficult point that needs to be addressed is: is this due to a real connection or do to a social connection formed in the mind of the individual because they feel repressed by society and see other repressed groups as equal, thereby feeling a sense of belonging?

This is the same issue with an increased prevalence of homosexuals and pedophiles in the Catholic church compared to the general population. Are catholic priests inherently homosexual and attracted to children, or do those who are feel repression and confusion by society and see joining the clergy as a chance to deal with their internal desires?

[Statler Waldorf]

Poor Waldork...still trying to convince the court that his invisible sky-daddy is an expert witness.

OVERRULED!

Poor MinimalIQist, he still doesn’t understand basic logical reasoning. Maybe by the time he is 80 he will, he had better hurry up though!

My understanding of an appeal to authority is where the need for proof is replaced by someone else's say-so. Even experts in their field need to be able to show their work. Science places no weight on authority, only evidence.

Your understanding is off then…

Description of Appeal to Authority
An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
1. Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
2. Person A makes claim C about subject S.
3. Therefore, C is true.
This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies...ority.html

God is not fallible though, so appealing to Him cannot be a fallacious appeal to authority anymore than appealing to a law of mathematics or logic would be.

A) Scripture defines marriage this way

1. No it doesn't.
2. Who the fuck cares? [/quote]

1. Yes it does. Genesis 2, 1 Corinthians 7, Ephesians 5, Mark 10 and Matthew 19
2. Many people do, and everyone should.

The dictionary changes with the times. Future dictionaries will probably define the term with gender neutral terms. This is not an absolute timeless authority.

Definitions matter in debates, so let’s stick with the way words are defined now since we are having this discussion now, thank you.

1. Strawman
2. Red Herring
3. False equivocation
4. Who the fuck cares what your godboy said?

1. Demonstrate how.
2. Demonstrate how.
3. Demonstrate how.
4. Many people do, everyone should.

Your god is imaginary so it is arbitrary.

Red herring, we are not discussing whether God exists or not, stick to the topic at hand if you can.

It's a completely different topic and so is a red herring.

Nope, it’s not a red herring, it’s a sexual behavior prohibited by scripture just like homosexuality. It would be interesting to see how you could morally justify homosexuality but not bestiality given your worldview.

Who the fuck cares what your imaginary god says?

Many people do, everyone should.

Nope. There really are credentials and a process of peer review. Christians can whine all they like but your quack psychologists are laughed at just as much as your quack creation "scientists".

It’s still a ‘no true Scotsman fallacy” because the definition of psychologist has nothing to do with whether the person is a Christian or not, same with the definition of scientist. I could just as easily say, “there are no psychologists who believe homosexuality is a healthy lifestyle because only Christian psychologists are “real” psychologists.” So meh!

'It is also socially destructive..history has shown when you approve of homosexualiy, paedophilia is not far behind.' lucent.


Your a horrible little shit, and your full of it. There is no correlation between wanting a dick up you arse, and wanting to touch kids you nasty narrow minded bitch.

That’s interesting you would say something like this considering that if a man sexually abuses a boy that by definition is a homosexual act. Only bisexual and homosexual men by defintion can molest boys.

[5thHorseman]

So what about female paedofiles who touch boys. They aren't homosexuals. Are they?

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God is not fallible though, so appealing to Him cannot be a fallacious appeal to authority anymore than appealing to a law of mathematics or logic would be.

How do you know he doesn't have to answer to his mum, after all there must be a creator, and 'he' too needs to be created.