Josh McDowell

[salty]

"The rejection of Christ is often not so much of the mind but of the will, not so much "I can't" but "I won't." - Josh McDowell, Evidence for Christianity

What's your gut reaction to this?

---

Evidence?

If your god (if you believe Jesus is god) obliged to provide evidence for doubting Thomas why can he not do the same thing for other non-believers, peoples of different faiths and myself?

Its not exactly like he hasn't got all the time in the world if you're arguing he's eternal. What, does listening to angels sing him praises in Heaven constantly matter far more to him than his own creation?

Either way, your god concept is an ass.

When Jesus allowed Thomas to touch him, he said that Thomas' faith was complete with sight and blessed are those that believe without seeing. The Lord will provide evidence of his existence to you, if you are earnestly seeking him. He proved himself to me, even if I told you, no one respects my "delusional" opinion, so I'm sad to say, unless you actually take me seriously, then I'll tell you what happened.

[The Grand Nudger]

I take you beliefs very seriously, the actual existence of the object of your beliefs is what I have a habit of questioning.

[salty]

Doesnt the bible say god causes us to suffer because we dont obey him salty?

Punishment and suffering aren't the same, the Lord allows those that serve him to suffer because it molds us, teaches us, fills us with hope and faith. This forum has been a tool for the Lord working in me. I have already been able to witness to many because I have spoken to them about my discussions on this forum. I am being verbally persecuted, but I walked into it, and the Lord is using it to prepare me for the work ahead.

Punishment denotes the Lord's wrath, but the Lord is slow to anger, his wrath hasn't been realized yet. Those who disobey him have the spirit of the enemy working in them, they suffer enough under his reign, but eventually the Lord will pour his wrath on the enemy (Satan) and them, every person will be made to answer for what they have done. It is only by the blood of Jesus that I will spared.

[The Grand Nudger]

There may be tools about, but it isn't the forum itself.

[Ace Otana]

Wow you're nuts.

[Minimalist]

Wow you're nuts.

Yep....Batshit crazy.

[The Grand Nudger]

Anyone who talks about being "bathed in the blood" has clearly never watched "Carrie". It doesn't work the way you think it does.

[salty]

So, the story goes, the Biblical 'God' character creates evil, and allows it to wreak havoc on his new world, it takes a third of his angels in heaven, & causes the fall of man which effects every living person on the planet till the end of time. Gosh that worked out well.

So then 'God' decides to send his own son, which is really himself, to Earth to be sacrificed to himself in order to correct his own fuck up.

And this makes sense to you?

But lets keep going.

Supposedly this event is the most important event ever, so what does this omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of everything do to assure that his word is clearly disseminated to all of humanity? He appears to a bunch of illiterate superstitious, barbaric Bedouin goat herders, who don't even record these stories until decades (in the case of the OT, centuries) after they allegedly occurred.

The end result? Texts that are internally and externally contradictory, leading to over 30,000 Christian sects. Many with major doctrinal differences. Not to mention, texts that are just plain unbelievable on their face, unless you've been indoctrinated, of course. And not a shred of evidence for ANY of it.

So, then he allows some of us to be born with minds that just won't allow us to believe without being provided with evidence, he knows what sort of evidence each of us will accept yet he fails to provide it to us, and he does this knowing ahead of time that we are destined to be tortured for eternity for a finite thought crime.

He creates a system where billions of people are destined to fail, and being omnipotent and omniscient, he knows all this ahead of time, yet he does it anyway. Does that really look like the actions of an all loving deity to you?

I am so glad that this deity doesn't exist. Too bad so many of his followers do.

This is a response to you and just about everyone else.

I know about many of the cults. I know that someone who only reads the Bible to mock it wouldn't understand what it's saying, in the first place. I know that you have your reasons for not believing and it's all well and good that everyone takes their turn picking apart everything I say, but the bottom line is this: you're not a mistake. No one is a mistake. He has a plan for you, something that only you can achieve and that you will doing. Have you ever considered that God sees you in double vision? He sees what you are now and what you could be? He doesn't give up on you, even though he knows your ultimate decision, and since that decision isn't told to me, I musn't give up on you either. I'm not concerned about converting you, I'm concerned about answering the questions you have about God. The serious questions. I'm here for that part of each of you that is truly seeking the Lord. Even Rhythm (who will never bow, I know). I am here for that piece of you that wants to really know if you're loved, and it's true. You are. You all know so well how to hurt, to embarrass, to mock, to deceive, to simper, to refuse, but do any of you know how to rationally consider something? Without a hateful word, how to weigh things like someone who is unbias? Can any of you speak in a manner that is praise-worthy, uplifting and kind? Would any of you say these things to my face? Can one of you be open-minded and think of how someone else feels for a moment? Are any of you capable of loving someone you don't know? That is the difference between us, that is the reason I hope that someday you will consider the claims of Christ, seriously, so that you can be transformed from the inside out. I used to have so much bitterness, hatred and anger, I see the old me in many of you and I can't help but pity you, just as you pity me for my beliefs. At least we agree on something!

If any of you were truly seeking the Lord, he would have already shown up for you as he did for me. It's when you want God to submit to your rules that he doesn't show up, why should he? You wouldn't recognize him, so he waits until you really want to know him, and he appears.

For today, that is all I have to say, I'm going to get some Frozen Yo. Have a good night everyone.

[Minimalist]

I know about many of the cults.

But, of course, you don't consider yourself a cultist. Cults are what others believe in, right?

[searchingforanswers]

Doesnt the bible say god causes us to suffer because we dont obey him salty?

Punishment and suffering aren't the same, the Lord allows those that serve him to suffer because it molds us, teaches us, fills us with hope and faith. This forum has been a tool for the Lord working in me. I have already been able to witness to many because I have spoken to them about my discussions on this forum. I am being verbally persecuted, but I walked into it, and the Lord is using it to prepare me for the work ahead.

Punishment denotes the Lord's wrath, but the Lord is slow to anger, his wrath hasn't been realized yet. Those who disobey him have the spirit of the enemy working in them, they suffer enough under his reign, but eventually the Lord will pour his wrath on the enemy (Satan) and them, every person will be made to answer for what they have done. It is only by the blood of Jesus that I will spared.

So people who serve god suffer and people who reject him suffer? and jesus blood will spare you??? Nothing you ever did, no one you ever helped just the sweet aroma of death saves you from god's wrath? "Oh i could torture you forever but you actually believed in that shit about me killing myself to convince myself to forgive you guys, so you deserve to be spared."