Potter to the clay

[frankiej]

Well, let's examine. There is no authority higher than God,

Says who? You and a book? And lots of others who have read the book?

I might just start worshipping the Valar... They are in a book... And there is as much evidence for them as their is for your God...

I could apply some bullshit to Tolkien's legendarium and make ridiculous assumptions from it to apply to real life.

[BloodyHeretic]

The potter and the clay is used as a 'stop asking awkward questions and shut the fuck up' argument. It supposes to give you perspective. You, it says, are a piece of dirt and know nothing, what would you know? Classic humiliation tactics to subject people. If god did indeed view us as clay, why would he love us? Clay is just a potter's material. Either god views us as dirt to be used as he sees fit, or if you like this whole he-loves-us-and-wants-a-personal-relationship rubbish, you cannot accept that you have no right to question and doubt and fucking improve on 'god's plan'. The whole thing is too stupid, just far too stupid.

[Epimethean]

In other words whoever holds the power over another is inherently right. Yes, that's the argument of the clay analogy. Might makes right by invoking an inanimate objects, what a wonderful thing to compare human beings too. Helpful little werewolves aren't they?

Have you read "Borges and I," Rhythm?

Fun stuff.

[searchingforanswers]

The potter and the clay is used as a 'stop asking awkward questions and shut the fuck up' argument. It supposes to give you perspective. You, it says, are a piece of dirt and know nothing, what would you know? Classic humiliation tactics to subject people. If god did indeed view us as clay, why would he love us? Clay is just a potter's material. Either god views us as dirt to be used as he sees fit, or if you like this whole he-loves-us-and-wants-a-personal-relationship rubbish, you cannot accept that you have no right to question and doubt and fucking improve on 'god's plan'. The whole thing is too stupid, just far too stupid.

this is an extremely good point that I had never thought of before.

[BloodyHeretic]

The potter and the clay is used as a 'stop asking awkward questions and shut the fuck up' argument. It supposes to give you perspective. You, it says, are a piece of dirt and know nothing, what would you know? Classic humiliation tactics to subject people. If god did indeed view us as clay, why would he love us? Clay is just a potter's material. Either god views us as dirt to be used as he sees fit, or if you like this whole he-loves-us-and-wants-a-personal-relationship rubbish, you cannot accept that you have no right to question and doubt and fucking improve on 'god's plan'. The whole thing is too stupid, just far too stupid.

this is an extremely good point that I had never thought of before.

Very kind of you to say so, thank you.

[lucent]

The analogy isn't calling us dirt, because the material itself is irrelevent. Let's elaborate on the analogy. Let's say you're a parent dealing with 5 year old. The five year old says to you "I don't want to go to school"
You say "You're going whether you want to or not"
Kid says "Why do I have to listen to you?"
You say "Because we're your parents and brought you into this world"
Kid says "That's not fair! You shouldn't have done that! I don't have to listen to you because you didn't ask to create me!"

Getting the gist of it? How ridiculous is it for a kid to tell their parents that they had no right to make him, or that they can't tell him what to do? A five year old doesn't know anything about life, and obvious needs a lot of instruction, and also protection. That kid needs his parents to tell him what to do, to nurture and guide him to becoming a happy and healthy human being.

The difference is even more profound when you're dealing with God. Just as your parents had a right to tell you what to do because they give birth to you, God has every right to tell humanity what to do because he created us. Just as its ridiculous for a little kid to think he knows better than his parents, its even more ridiculous to think humans know better than God does, the author of life as we know it. This is what the analogy is getting at.

The potter and the clay is used as a 'stop asking awkward questions and shut the fuck up' argument. It supposes to give you perspective. You, it says, are a piece of dirt and know nothing, what would you know? Classic humiliation tactics to subject people. If god did indeed view us as clay, why would he love us? Clay is just a potter's material. Either god views us as dirt to be used as he sees fit, or if you like this whole he-loves-us-and-wants-a-personal-relationship rubbish, you cannot accept that you have no right to question and doubt and fucking improve on 'god's plan'. The whole thing is too stupid, just far too stupid.

[Darwinian]

But at least the 5 year old has evidence that his/her parents actually exist. He/she can see them, touch them, talk to them and they can do likewise.

How would it be if his/her parents had never even met their child, never spoke to him/her and had just left a set of instructions in an old book for which there was no evidence at all that they actually wrote it or that they actually existed in the first place?

Hmmmmm?

[BloodyHeretic]

The analogy isn't calling us dirt, because the material itself is irrelevent. Let's elaborate on the analogy. Let's say you're a parent dealing with 5 year old.

Hold your horses dear, you can't just do that. You're just changing the analogy. According to what it says we're analogous to what clay is to a potter, in god's eyes. A child is more to a parent than clay is to a potter.

How ridiculous is it for a kid to tell their parents that they had no right to make him, or that they can't tell him what to do? A five year old doesn't know anything about life, and obvious needs a lot of instruction, and also protection. That kid needs his parents to tell him what to do, to nurture and guide him to becoming a happy and healthy human being.

If God made us, he made us with a rational brain, capable of logic, critical thought, curiosity and asking questions. When a five year old asks you why he must go to school, you tell him. When he asks why you must not play with fire, you tell him. You answer his questions and he learns! Clay does not question a potter, and a potter certainly does not answer merely clay. It's the consummate stop-asking-awkward-questions argument. It's used by priests and bishops and popes and pastors and witch doctors to avoid answering questions. God knows everything, you know fuck all, so shut up and sacrifice your son....

The difference is even more profound when you're dealing with God. Just as your parents had a right to tell you what to do because they give birth to you, God has every right to tell humanity what to do because he created us. Just as its ridiculous for a little kid to think he knows better than his parents, its even more ridiculous to think humans know better than God does, the author of life as we know it. This is what the analogy is getting at.

Your parents do not have the right to tell you what to do because they gave birth to you, they have the responsibility to tell you what to do, so that you can grow up to be a healthy happy member of society. If god is so concerned with telling us what to do, why did he give us free will? Surely he wanted us to exercise our own brains, to think for ourselves, to grow up and be happy people. The analogy likens us to clay, to be used on god's whim as he sees fit, your analogy likens us to a child, but children grow up. Both fail. It's simply a tool to suppress inquisitiveness in over curious thinkers. It makes sense.
[/quote]

[Zen Badger]

The difference is even more profound when you're dealing with God. Just as your parents had a right to tell you what to do because they give birth to you, God has every right to tell humanity what to do because he created us. Just as its ridiculous for a little kid to think he knows better than his parents, its even more ridiculous to think humans know better than God does, the author of life as we know it. This is what the analogy is getting at.

Since you have yet to provide any evidence or proof that god even exists arguing about what he can or can't do seems to be rather moot.

[frankiej]

Lucent, can you please read the rest of this thread if you are going to comment.

The parent analogy has been used before... But it definitely does not work in you favour.