Potter to the clay

[Epimethean]

Nothing works in theists' favor except faith and the enjoyment of sharing a fantasy. More and more, the analogy of a sci-fi convention works here: Rabid fans, dressed up in the trappings of their favorite story, acting "in character," not wanting to leave when the party's over.

The party's been over for 2,000 years, guys.

[lucent]

Hold your horses dear, you can't just do that. You're just changing the analogy. According to what it says we're analogous to what clay is to a potter, in god's eyes. A child is more to a parent than clay is to a potter.

The analogy does not speak to how important the clay is to the potter. It's clear from the bible that God considers us to be His children. What it is speaking to is His sovereign role in creation, and our limited role. Just like you are the authority over your child, and your child will have a limited role in your household. Can a five year old be in charge of making money and paying the bills? No, he has to learn how to be a responsible adult first. Does he have the wisdom to give you instruction on what you should or shouldn't be doing? No, he barely has enough wisdom to stay out of the road.

If God made us, he made us with a rational brain, capable of logic, critical thought, curiosity and asking questions. When a five year old asks you why he must go to school, you tell him. When he asks why you must not play with fire, you tell him. You answer his questions and he learns! Clay does not question a potter, and a potter certainly does not answer merely clay. It's the consummate stop-asking-awkward-questions argument. It's used by priests and bishops and popes and pastors and witch doctors to avoid answering questions. God knows everything, you know fuck all, so shut up and sacrifice your son....

Your interpretation here is flawed. First, because people do ask God questions and He does answer them. That's all throughout the bible. If God thought of us like that He never would have sent His Son to die on the cross. The bible itself is the answer to our questions. Second, because God does explain exactly why He created us. It's not a secret, or a forbidden question. Again, this is just showing Gods sovereign role in creation. God didn't need your permission to create you, just like your parents didn't need your permission. If you're a created being, whatever created you obviously did it without your permission. If you don't like being born, it's obviously already too late to complain about it.

Your parents do not have the right to tell you what to do because they gave birth to you, they have the responsibility to tell you what to do, so that you can grow up to be a healthy happy member of society. If god is so concerned with telling us what to do, why did he give us free will? Surely he wanted us to exercise our own brains, to think for ourselves, to grow up and be happy people. The analogy likens us to clay, to be used on god's whim as he sees fit, your analogy likens us to a child, but children grow up. Both fail. It's simply a tool to suppress inquisitiveness in over curious thinkers. It makes sense.

Of course they have the right to tell you what to do because they gave birth to you. What else would give them that right? That fact makes them your legal custodians and thus your authority until you are of age. In the same way, God has the same right to tell you what to do as your authority.

Now it's fine to question, but could you tell God what to do? Could the clay instruct the potter? In the same way that a 5 year old child couldn't instruct his parents on how to run the house, neither could we instruct God on how to run His creation. It's not telling you to be quiet, it's letting you know the reality..that as a created being you are in an inferior position to the creator, just as a child is in an inferior position to his parents. It's fine to ask questions, because God has given us answers. Again, He has told us exactly why He created us. There is a big difference between asking questions, which is fine, and telling God what to do and how to do it, which is ridiculous.

The analogy isn't calling us dirt, because the material itself is irrelevent. Let's elaborate on the analogy. Let's say you're a parent dealing with 5 year old.

Hold your horses dear, you can't just do that. You're just changing the analogy. According to what it says we're analogous to what clay is to a potter, in god's eyes. A child is more to a parent than clay is to a potter.

How ridiculous is it for a kid to tell their parents that they had no right to make him, or that they can't tell him what to do? A five year old doesn't know anything about life, and obvious needs a lot of instruction, and also protection. That kid needs his parents to tell him what to do, to nurture and guide him to becoming a happy and healthy human being.

If God made us, he made us with a rational brain, capable of logic, critical thought, curiosity and asking questions. When a five year old asks you why he must go to school, you tell him. When he asks why you must not play with fire, you tell him. You answer his questions and he learns! Clay does not question a potter, and a potter certainly does not answer merely clay. It's the consummate stop-asking-awkward-questions argument. It's used by priests and bishops and popes and pastors and witch doctors to avoid answering questions. God knows everything, you know fuck all, so shut up and sacrifice your son....

The difference is even more profound when you're dealing with God. Just as your parents had a right to tell you what to do because they give birth to you, God has every right to tell humanity what to do because he created us. Just as its ridiculous for a little kid to think he knows better than his parents, its even more ridiculous to think humans know better than God does, the author of life as we know it. This is what the analogy is getting at.

Your parents do not have the right to tell you what to do because they gave birth to you, they have the responsibility to tell you what to do, so that you can grow up to be a healthy happy member of society. If god is so concerned with telling us what to do, why did he give us free will? Surely he wanted us to exercise our own brains, to think for ourselves, to grow up and be happy people. The analogy likens us to clay, to be used on god's whim as he sees fit, your analogy likens us to a child, but children grow up. Both fail. It's simply a tool to suppress inquisitiveness in over curious thinkers. It makes sense.

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