'Seeking' God

[Shell B]

Given the time span of each of those belief systems and/or the time during which they were "popular," you could probably change most of those "thousands" to at least millions, El Chupacabra.

[lucent]

Scary. Later you accuse me of arguing from ignorance and yet your 'evidence' is that "well of course the universe exhbits design, oh and DNA". Do you not see the irony? Please go read some science books rather than polluting the world with arguments such as these and perhaps just ask yourself one question: what would an undesigned universe look like to me?. You claim design and order is 'obvious' in a gigantic argument from ignorance, yet you will not be able to describe a universe where humans can observe a dis-ordered universe. Also answer which elements of the universe that you observe have order which possibly cannot come from natural events.

That's the entire point. Human beings never would emerge except from a highly precise Universe fine-tuned for life and living on a planet with extremely priviledged circumstances. There is a conspiracy in the laws of physics for life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHodt-7Q7A

Speaking of disorder, the big bang violates the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. I know quite a bit about science, and the evidence isn't there. No evidence for cosmic origin. No evidence for life from non-life. No evidence for soup to DNA. No mechanism in natural selection for DNA. The big bang theory is basically unworkable; why do you think they're looking for dark energy and dark matter? Hint, they don't exist.

Scientifically illiterate argument I'm afraid. There are natural explanations for origins of the universe try the hartle hawking conjecture and the wave function of the universe.

Unprovable, untestable metaphysics.

Try abiogenesis for DNA.

Again, unproven, untestable metaphysics. There isn't even a shred of evidence it is true.

And you gave away your thinking by using the word gaps and filling it with a god of such gaps. Mankind will never be able to answer all fundamental questions we can only ever get close to it.

You don't get to waltz in, fail to explain *any* of the fundemental questions and then claim God can't be involved.

The universe is expanding faster than the ability of light to travel. This fact in and of itself poses major problems for supernaturalism. You would have to eliminate all natural possibilities for phenomona you want to attribute to a god, but because mankind will never be omniscient your argumenst will never go through.

Even if you explored the entire material universe and could monitor all of it simultaneously you still wouldn't be able to disprove it.

Almost jawdropping irony to claim that I'm arguing from ignorance. I can back my beliefs up with a consistent worldview and evidence. Whereas you are arguing that that universe is designed, becuase you say it is and it has to be supernatural, because you say it is and you can't possibly think of a reason how nature can account for these so called phenomona. Go and think about it.

Nature doesn't account for it, and there isn't an explanation for it. The gaps are grand caynons which science has no hope of filling in. I'm saying the Universe has the appearance of design, and if you look up the post list, you'll see a number of high profile scientists admitting it. So, either the Universe was designed or it designed itself. You have hawkings proposing the Universe spontaneously generated itself from nothing and people smile and nod knowingly. It's incredible.

So if I drop to my knees and ask Jesus for forgiveness or whatever and he doesn't appear I either wont have tried hard enough or honestly enough or both or its good becuase I'll be suffering like Christ (hope I've not missed any xtian response I could get back). But if I do get a response then I was doing it hard and honestly enough and you were right all along. Your not leaving any option that you might just be worng are you? The third and most obvious option is that there isn't anyone there; hate to break it to you. Just how credulous do you think I am to accept such an invitation? Mother Theresa who was very motivated to believe never once got a response, wonder what she really thought?

It isn't that hard to be sincere. Admit that you could be wrong, and humble yourself and ask God for the answer. If you can do that God will honor it. And Mother Teresa did hear from Jesus, many times when she was younger, and once or twice when she was older. The door is open.

[Shell B]

It isn't that hard to be sincere. Admit that you could be wrong, and humble yourself

You first.

[lucent]

I think it is arrogant of Christians to write off the spiritual experiences of thousands of Greeks as delusional.
I think it is arrogant of Muslims to write off the spiritual experiences of thousands of Hindus as delusional.
I think it is arrogant of Jews to write off the spiritual experiences of thousands of Scientologists as delusional.
I think it is arrogant of Vikings to write off the spiritual experiences of thousands of Sikhs as delusional.

I don't write them off, I just know they are/were deceived. There is a difference between believing something because you're off kilter, and believing something because you were deliberately deceived. I have no doubt they all had very convincing spiritual experiences and interactions with actual spirits. The problem is, those spirits are demons.

---

Yes, lucent, someone is right and someone is wrong. You assert that you are right. You assert that we atheists are wrong. You get pissy when we assert, but see nothing wrong with asserting your beliefs with wall after wall of text. Is it arrogant to think that billions of people are deluded? Fuck no, it isn't. Billions of people have been wrong before, genius.

I don't care what claims atheists make. Someone saying "there is no God" doesn't offend me. Someone saying "there is no god, you are a **** *** *** *** **** ****" doesn't even offend me. I just think having such a gigantic attitude problem about theists when you invite them to debate on your forum is pretty ridiculous.

Billions of people have been wrong and right. It's arrogant to just assume they are with no real proof.

[Cyberman]

Let's just accept for a moment that the Big Bang does violate the laws of Thermodynamics. Let's set aside for the moment that, according to the Big Bang model, all laws of physics break down at the moment of singularity (if there ever was one). Ok, clean slate. The Universe exists. You believe that it was brought into being by a creator god. You have the floor: please explain how this god managed to do this without violating the laws of Thermodynamics that you're complaining about.

[lucent]

It isn't that hard to be sincere. Admit that you could be wrong, and humble yourself

You first.

I have been wrong, I used to be an agnostic remember? Yes, I am fallable. This is what paul says:

1 Corinthians 15:17-19

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

[ElDinero]

I don't write them off, I just know they are/were deceived. There is a difference between believing something because you're off kilter, and believing something because you were deliberately deceived. I have no doubt they all had very convincing spiritual experiences and interactions with actual spirits. The problem is, those spirits are demons.

Ahahhahahahaha. Get fucked. Talk about arrogance.
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. READ IT EVERYONE. They're DEMONS.

Holy shit you're a moron. I can't believe you can actually read what you post and not laugh your balls off at how stupid you are. I didn't think people got made this idiotic before.

You my friend are a special kind of stupid. Don't have children.

[lucent]

Let's just accept for a moment that the Big Bang does violate the laws of Thermodynamics. Let's set aside for the moment that, according to the Big Bang model, all laws of physics break down at the moment of singularity (if there ever was one). Ok, clean slate. The Universe exists. You believe that it was brought into being by a creator god. You have the floor: please explain how this god managed to do this without violating the laws of Thermodynamics that you're complaining about.

I don't believe God violates the 2nd law because there was no chance for entropy to build up. It started out at the maximal state of order and complexity before any disorder came into the picture..i'll have to think about the 1st law..there is also the question about pre fall conditions vs post fall conditions..ill get back to you :p

---

I don't write them off, I just know they are/were deceived. There is a difference between believing something because you're off kilter, and believing something because you were deliberately deceived. I have no doubt they all had very convincing spiritual experiences and interactions with actual spirits. The problem is, those spirits are demons.

Ahahhahahahaha. Get fucked. Talk about arrogance.
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. READ IT EVERYONE. They're DEMONS.

Holy shit you're a moron. I can't believe you can actually read what you post and not laugh your balls off at how stupid you are. I didn't think people got made this idiotic before.

You my friend are a special kind of stupid. Don't have children.

I just know this scripture is true:

Revelation 12:9

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

also:

1 Corinthians 10:19,20:

"What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils."

And I know demon possession is real..I have seen it first hand.

[Cyberman]

I don't write them off, I just know they are/were deceived. There is a difference between believing something because you're off kilter, and believing something because you were deliberately deceived. I have no doubt they all had very convincing spiritual experiences and interactions with actual spirits. The problem is, those spirits are demons.

Ahahhahahahaha. Get fucked. Talk about arrogance.
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA. READ IT EVERYONE. They're DEMONS.

Duly submitted to FSTDT.net. It's too good not to share.

Let's just accept for a moment that the Big Bang does violate the laws of Thermodynamics. Let's set aside for the moment that, according to the Big Bang model, all laws of physics break down at the moment of singularity (if there ever was one). Ok, clean slate. The Universe exists. You believe that it was brought into being by a creator god. You have the floor: please explain how this god managed to do this without violating the laws of Thermodynamics that you're complaining about.

I don't believe God violates the 2nd law because there was no chance for entropy to build up. It started out at the maximal state of order and complexity before any disorder came into the picture..i'll have to think about the 1st law..there is also the question about pre fall conditions vs post fall conditions..ill get back to you :p

So now you've established a condition which makes supernatural creation possible, or at the very least plausible, in your model. Fine. Now please explain why this condition could not also apply to the Big Bang model. In other words, this god took advantage of the physical condition you stated to work his magic. Why then could the Big Bang scenario not do likewise?

---

For anyone who is genuinely interested in the Big Bang model, the story of how it came to be and the great scientists throughout history who paved the way for it, I can recommend no greater work than Big Bang: The Most Important Scientific Discovery of All Time and Why You Need to Know About It by Simon Singh. It manages to walk the reader through the fascinating evolution of all the various theories of cosmology and physics, without being either turgid or condescending.

[Shell B]

Oh my fucking god. You are literally batshit nuts, aren't you? You think that people who believe other than you talk to demons? You have "seen" demonic possession? I ask you this, have you ever seen photos of an abused, tortured and dead child who died at the hands of an exorcist? Have you ever actually seen a demon kill someone? Have you heard of it outside of unverifiable claims? I have heard of more people being killed by exorcists than demons. Your blanket judgment of all those people reveals who you are. Your bullshit claims to have borne witness to demonic possession make me hope that you do not have children, especially any with mental illness.

Oh, and I don't give a fuck what you think about people's attitude problems. We're not here to hold your hand. You are free to discuss within the confines of the rules. If you don't like it, go circle jerk on a Christian forum. I happen to like many Christians. There are very few that I outright dislike and none of them do I dislike because they are Christian. In every case, it is because they are judgmental, hypocritical, holier-than-thou pricks.