'Seeking' God

[Welsh cake]

Well, that isn't correct.

Ho ho, you don't know the Bible that you advertise very well do you?

John 14:6 - Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

You can't pray directly to God because of the incompatibility of your sinful nature and the purity of God's holiness.

Devout Christians would call you out as a 'compulsive liar' for asserting man can have an audience with God the Father lucent.

Jesus said knock and the door will open.

I've "knocked" countless times before my deconversion, no one ever answered me in any shape or form, because there was no one else listening. I was a pathetic indoctrinated fool who was talking to myself the entire time.

Praying that may not get you saved, but it will open a door for future dialogue.

So even you agree that prayer is not effective. God has to stop listening to angels praise him constantly, get off his arse, and do something. Pity the creator of the universe's intellect means the only effective solution he could find to the problem of sin was sacrificing his own son to spare a few and burn everyone else in Hell.

If you ask God for the truth, and show that you actually do want to know what it is, then He will lead you to it.

I have, the path led to ridicule, pain and my deconversion.

If God is real, he failed me, not I failed him.

[The Grand Nudger]

I can sum up your relationship with god perfectly in one word: illusory. Whether or not it is useful to you is something that you have obviously decided for yourself, and there's nothing that I can say about that.

I can, however, assure you that each poster you've met here is demonstrably "more real" than your god.

[salty]

Christianity was the only place where I was told that God loved me, cherished me, gave up his life for me, made a path for me, will guide me, will change me, will never leave me and even if I commit inexcuseable evil he'll forgive me, and I don't deserve any of this, which is why it's so amazing, because I know I don't deserve it. You can call someone's thoughts delusional, but until you've set foot in their shoes, until you understand what they have been saved from your point will never be made. You simply cannot convince someone who has experienced the transforming power of Christ to stop living for him, but you can easily derail someone religious.

This is nice, up to a point, and I can certainly understand those kinds of feelings. Are you a Universalist or a believer that the souls of those who aren't going to heaven are extinguished? Because if you're not, it's very likely you believe that anyone who doesn't agree with you on theological matters is destined for and deserves eternal, writhing torment in unimaginable pain. And that's not so nice.

I'm glad you can understand my feelings, even if it's limited. I've been looking for someone who can do that. When it comes to heaven and hell I have to say that I really don't know what's going to happen because God will be the judge. He does spend a lot of time in the bible describing the kinds of people that will inherit the kingdom and the kind that won't.

The kind that will inherit the kingdom are people that delight in God's justice, his character, they love his ways and they offer their lives to serve him not because they have to, but because they truly believe that he has a plan for them and they want to achieve what he has set forth. Also, people who die before they are able to understand the difference between right and wrong will inherit the kingdom and people that lived their lives by a higher moral code believing that there is a structure of right and wrong that is revealed to them in their conscience and a higher being that they will answer to for the evils they've commited, these people are people that do not know Christ, but still serve him through their conscience and their lifestyle.

Those who will not inherit the kingdom. People who live as if they have no one to answer to and who despise the Lord's way. People who seek selfishness and hope to achieve only their own goals without caring for others and without submitting to God. People who enjoy commiting sin and have no remorse and no intention to repent.

Everyone has the choice of heaven or hell, what they choose is up to them. Concerning a soul, the bible does say that the devil will be tortured for eternity, but mentions people being razed like sodom and gomorrah and we know that those cities were destroyed but they're not still burning.. so I don't know what will happen to people that go to hell, but I want to make it clear that we all deserve hell because God could have been done with us when we decided to disobey, it wasn't God's fault that Eve chose the fruit, it was fully her decision to listen to the serpent. I believe that God felt that people like you and me shouldn't suffer for a decision we couldn't stop, since none of us could tell Eve to get her fingers off that fruit the lord provided a way for all of us to choose, now no one can be blamed for someone's else's decision.

[The Grand Nudger]

Perhaps I only despise the Lord as you describe him. Perhaps your description is inaccurate.

[salty]

I'll be gentle, I promise.

one has to be true, but which is it?

Want to correct you here. Only one could be right, but they can all be wrong.

If we decide there is no higher moral code or way than our own then we actually decide to worship ourselves

Not worship. It shows independence and intelligence. Morality can so easily come from intelligence.

, even though we can't stop ourselves from dying, getting sick or becoming victims of crimes. So what do we do?

Do what we can with the available science and technology. Faith and prayer does nothing. So we are left with only one effective method.

I guess we have to decide if we need God.

How can we rely on god if he does not exist?

Yes, we have to use our feelings.

Feelings cannot tell reality from fantasy. Often they cloud your judgement.

Some people, like you Ace, are very satisfied with the life they have and may not feel guilt for the past or relive their pain,

I have no guilt or pain. If there was any, I'd try to undo or make up for it somehow, independently.

some people have their own methods to stay positive and do things as they like to do them, using their common sense to make decisions that will create a better life for them while they're here and viewing the world as it is, full of life and rebirth, seeing nothing more.

Seeing the world as it is. No spirits, no crazy imagination, just the natural world that's painfully obvious to the human eye.

But not everyone sees the world like this, some of us want to know that there is justice for people who have died in pain or on a whim, like myself.

'Want'? Reality won't rearrange itself for you. If there is no afterlife then there is no afterlife. Only our perception of reality changes not reality itself.

We want to know that the millions of people who perished in turbulent weather, turbulent times, in misery, in hunger, in shock, in sadness, that they will have their time of reckoning and they will be in a better place.

Want is one thing. What is, is quite another. I want cancer to go away and never return. That no one ever suffers from it again. Many others want the same thing, but this won't affect reality.

Some of us want to know there is a way to stop the anger or hatred we have, to control the fear or the envy, to stop us from hurting ourselves and others with the circle of slefish decisions we tend to make. Some people need God because they know that in their own hands their lives are wasted, but in God's hands their lives flourish and they will be renewed.

Like a child who has grown up and realised that the big wide world is cold, hard and lonely. I suspect you like many others are looking for a parent figure. We are always looking up to others more capable than ourselves. There for, it's understandable that people will invent a 'god' to look out for them so they feel comforted and safe. A blanket to hide from reality.
People don't waste their lives without belief in god. I'm fine, so are countless others godless heathens.

Christianity was the only place where I was told that God loved me, cherished me, gave up his life for me, made a path for me, will guide me, will change me, will never leave me and even if I commit inexcuseable evil he'll forgive me, and I don't deserve any of this, which is why it's so amazing, because I know I don't deserve it.

You're living in a fantasy world. It's all a delusion. You perceive a world where everything is taken care of, you have a big daddy looking out for you and that you and your loved ones will continue to exist in a better place. It is all too good to be true. Reality isn't like that, or even close to that. It's hard and tough. That's why we have religions. People fear a hard and tough reality. It's not all bad, it has it's many wonders and beauty.

Also one other thing, how can god die and still exist? He can't really give anything up really. He's all powerful, no limitations.

You can call someone's thoughts delusional, but until you've set foot in their shoes, until you understand what they have been saved from your point will never be made.

And as long as you hold tightly to your blanky, you'll never see the real world. To see reality for what it is. No dreams come true, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Reality.

You simply cannot convince someone who has experienced the transforming power of Christ to stop living for him, but you can easily derail someone religious.

Many atheists were once strong believers. Devout, head deep in it and still managed to discard the illusion. It is one big illusion. We are pattern seeking primates, we are hard wired to look for patterns and purpose that aren't there. We also naturally tend to ignore unpleasant thoughts instead of facing them.
We can and have many times pulled apart religious nonsense. Making it ever more obvious that it's an illusion. A lie to comfort the uneasy and the fool, by keeping them from seeing reality.

I believe that the only forces allowed to influence people on Earth are God and Lucifer (and his followers). God has made the choice cut and dry, either you're with him or you're against him.

Before you can claim that a god done anything you must first demonstrate that a god exists. A does not prove B without first proving A.

500 million life capable planets. 200 billion galaxies. Yet you'll ignore that because of your perception of reality. Your presupposition. That is closed minded.

I wish I could answer you point by point, but I don't have the time to do that on my phone. I may attempt to do it later. I want to make it clear that even though Christianity seems lovey dovey it's far easier being an atheist than being a Christian. You say that some were devout, they were religious actually because anyone that has experienced Jesus Christ doesn't just fall away when Dawkins writes a book or someone shows them a picture of the universe. People who have been renewed and restored are not influenced by the world's limited view of creation. Have you ever marveled at the power of the human body to unconsciously make a baby, that it just gets to work? How limited someone must be to decide that all of that innate ability is random. I don't need to prove the existence of God to state my beliefs. I only need to prove it if I wanted you to believe me, but Ace, you and many others are not able to meet me in the middle because you haven't decided that God is worth defending. If you did, at some point, than you and I would have more to discuss.

Also, do you know how terribly Christians are persecuted across the world? Do you know how hard it is to stand against the tide? Serving Christ is no joke, sometimes it costs us our lives and the lives of the people we love. You can mock my desire to draw close to God, but have you ever met a missionary family? Have you ever met people who barely escaped with their lives or were beaten to a bloody stump because they were telling people about how God changed them? I just read an ad on the metro talking about north Koreans that are beaten and arrested for being Christians and the bible tells us its going to get way worse. No matter how you try to make my beliefs sound like an illusion there are people out there dying for this message because a piece of people literally hate what we're saying and hate our God which is a powerful confirmation there is a devil, there is evil in this world and he can't wait to kill us so that no one else will be restored or renewed.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, we atheists don't have to work as hard to understand and make sense of our lives as you poor theists.

[salty]

Salty, don't you see there's something fundamentally wrong about asking us to seek God with a willingness to follow and then we'll see it's true; when we have every reason to think if we did the same thing with any other religion it would be just as likely to produce the same results? What you're asking isn't special to Christianity: it's common to any outfit that sees the gullible as potential recruits. If you want to attract skeptics to Christianity, this tactic is virtually guaranteed to have the opposite effect; we tend to steer clear of tricky sales pitches. You might have better luck if you demonstrate what is different about Christianity, not what it has that is typical of many religions.

I think I demonstrated that in another post when I asked how we could tell the difference and I explained the reason I chose Christianity. I agree that this tactic is not useful to woo people that see all religion as a trick, but it is not my intention to specifically woo skeptics, it's my intention to speak to people who are seeking openly or in secret. If they want to experience Jesus Christ they can.

I was a Christian for most of my life, and although I really wanted to "experience Jesus Christ", I never did. Not even once. Maybe Jesus doesn't love me? If so, the feelings are mutual.

You didn't experience him even once...what were your thoughts on God back then? Can you remember. Not now, but then? Were you thinking that God was in nature were you thinking that God was present? Even if you couldn't feel him were you thinking he was around?

[Welsh cake]

I don't know what will happen to people that go to hell, but I want to make it clear that we all deserve hell because God could have been done with us when we decided to disobey

We all deserve eternal torture and/or destruction?

Even her?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s4ADmIp_pI

No finite crime deserves Hell.

With all due respect, fuck you and your magic man complex.

[thesummerqueen]

salty, I know people who have felt all those things as well with their "first loves," but some of them got locked up for stalking or at least given restraining orders. It's quite possible to fall under delusion.

I really don't care how "deep" god goes with you - it makes you feel better, it makes you feel loved - my initial statement still stands.

I don't try to rationalize my romances with breathing humans, fortunately many with those who reciprocated, and the two that haven't...well, maybe like God, Johnny Depp and Gerard Butler will come around. All I'm saying is that if you didn't try to rationalize your relationship with your imaginary friend, it would go so much easier for you...for all y'all.

Also, I never try to tell people they should love Mr. Butler, even though I think he's the sexiest man on the face of the planet. (Before you object, Eldinero, we can argue that point later - while your suit was delicious, I've yet to see you in a Spartan costume.)

That's the other problem I have with this whole thing - seek him all you want, but don't expect us to think we should have a love affair with God.

And some might argue I have a love affair with life and nature - as a romantic, I'd love to think so. I savor it. I relish what my senses give me - the open wind, the bright sun, the smell of warmed Southern soil the night after a rain when the humidity clings to the darkness and you taste life on the breeze...but I don't worship it, and neither am I required to. So I just don't understand your need. I have enough. I don't need to seek god. All that I need is within me, and within my fellows around me, and within the earth below me. When I seek things there, I find them...and it's not your god.

[salty]

It's a place is it? Can I get an address, just to check our bases? My true nature needs no repair. So I suppose that's not going to cut it for me. Why do your arguments consistently hinge on the bare assertion that I am broken? You'd have to demonstrate this as well as your god fix. It only complicates your claims. Why would I view your relationship with god as anything but an elaborate front for what you feel is self improvement, as defined (or as accepted as a definition for whatever reason) by yourself?

I view the personal testimony (such that it is) from the christians in my life with the same scrutiny I view yours. They all know it, I make no bones about it. This is hardly a different, or more persuasive argument than anything you've offered up to date.

Any conversation I have with the religiously minded in my life generally ends with "I don't know, you make a good point. I hadn't thought about it from that angle but honestly I still have faith, and that's enough" Fucking brilliant response. No excuses, no claims to knowledge which does not exist. No continuous assertions that the bible is the literal word (my wife doesn't swallow a word of the OT's history or miracles, nor does jesus need to be a physical person running around the countryside performing magic tricks for her faith to be workable and unassailable.) When I criticize your god, I'm defending hers.

I think you make your brokenness relatively clear. I believe lucent already addressed it in another thread. Your wife is christian I see and she doesn't believe in the old testament? ...