RE: Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Souls, and Atheism
November 21, 2011 at 4:34 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2011 at 5:00 pm by Willpower.)
RE: Cinjin
--The study articulated "relations between demographic, medical, pharmacological, and psychological factors and the frequency and depth of NDE. No medical, pharmacological, or psychological factor affected the frequency of the experience."
This is evidence against your assertion, "your mind is reacting to your body dying." This indicates that these positive NDEs occurred independent of the listed factors (which include the psychology (mindset) of the individual).
Furthermore, the study explains: "People who have had an NDE are psychologically healthy, although some show non-pathological signs of dissociation. Such people do not differ from controls with respect to age, sex, ethnic origin, religion, or degree of religious belief." Furthermore, the explained that, out of the individuals they studied, only "(72%) were religious." Yet they all had very similar experiences (--some of which I described in posts #32 and #14).
Additionally, the NDErs results unite respect to the impact that the NDE has on those experiencers:
"Scores for questions from the life-change inventory were assessed with the Mann-Whitney test:"
"Significant differences in answers to 13 of the 34 items in the life-change inventory between people with and without an NDE are shown in table 4. For instance, people who had NDE had a significant increase in belief in an afterlife and decrease in fear of death compared with people who had not had this experience. Depth of NDE was linked to high scores in spiritual items such as interest in the meaning of one's own life, and social items such as showing love and accepting others. The 13 patients who had superficial NDE underwent the same specific transformational changes as those who had a core experience."
If you look at the chart in the study for the full analysis and list of the "significant differences in answers to 13 of the 34 items," you see that NDErs scored significantly higher in:
Showing own feelings
Acceptance of others
More loving, empathic
Understanding others
Involvement in family
Understand purpose of life
Sense inner meaning of life
Interest in spirituality
Belief in life after death
Interest in meaning of life
Understanding oneself
Appreciation of ordinary things
And lower in: Fear of death.
[Let me now digress to religious discussion, if not just this once, in order to more fully address your statement: "The most obvious proof that near death experiences are bull shit is how different they all are"]
Maybe the importance of NDEs is not what individuals actually perceive, but rather the impact of the experience--an aspect that experiencers evidently have significant congruence in. If I were God and wanted people to recognize My will--the importance of "showing love and accepting others" and the similar--I would not employ the same exact strategy for each individual person.
Why? Given the same set of information (or images), every person will handle and interpret that information differently. Having a static image/NDE thus may not be the most effective manner of communication.
Instead, by adapting the message (images, etc.) for each person, there is a better chance that the individual will comprehend it the way God intends, and make the changes that these NDE experiencers each and collectively have made.
Furthermore, their altered lifestyle becomes a living testimony illustrating what it means to "[show] love and [accept] others" and the similar. In this way, these Godly ideals would be reflected in their new-found personality as they now become a semi-embodiment of God's will/perspective on life. No doubt, this newfound loving/accepting attitude would have an impact upon those whom these individuals interact with. Furthermore, they still have their story to additionally tell of how they survived death, saw the light, and how they now see a deeper and more positive meaning of life--one which encompasses "showing love and accepting others" to a statistically significantly greater degree than the average. Not only they are changed for the better, but potentially those around them are, too. Maybe this is God's will.
The exact images that they perceived are thus only a mere/irrelevant stepping-stone on the path to instill this positive change and heavenly message.
I only present that as a possible explanation. There may be others. Undisputed, however, is the ultimate impact: that regardless of "medical, pharmacological, or psychological factors," they all move towards the ideals and virtues that have already been promoted by Christian doctrine for centuries.
(--Despite however weakly many Christians actually live up to it.)
Maybe this is just one more unique way for God to present that same message.
[--End of religious digression]
(November 21, 2011 at 3:36 pm)Cinjin Wrote: Regarding poll:
I voted maybe mostly because I have deistic views and I don't rule out the possibility of an afterlife. That being said, I do think the great majority of NDEs are bull shit. Your mind is reacting to your body dying. Perhaps that's all Hell ever was. You were a horrible person and your last 10 minutes of life was "an eternity" in hell. In other words, your mind put yourself there because you knew were a real asshole in life and you your last breath was a horrible experience because you were a douche-bag. Many other people have very pleasant experiences. Many other people report nothing. The most obvious proof that near death experiences are bull shit is how different they all are and how curious it is that a christian goes to a christian "afterlife" and a muslim goes to a muslim "afterlife."
So are NDEs legit? Possible, but not likely.
--The study articulated "relations between demographic, medical, pharmacological, and psychological factors and the frequency and depth of NDE. No medical, pharmacological, or psychological factor affected the frequency of the experience."
This is evidence against your assertion, "your mind is reacting to your body dying." This indicates that these positive NDEs occurred independent of the listed factors (which include the psychology (mindset) of the individual).
Furthermore, the study explains: "People who have had an NDE are psychologically healthy, although some show non-pathological signs of dissociation. Such people do not differ from controls with respect to age, sex, ethnic origin, religion, or degree of religious belief." Furthermore, the explained that, out of the individuals they studied, only "(72%) were religious." Yet they all had very similar experiences (--some of which I described in posts #32 and #14).
Additionally, the NDErs results unite respect to the impact that the NDE has on those experiencers:
"Scores for questions from the life-change inventory were assessed with the Mann-Whitney test:"
"Significant differences in answers to 13 of the 34 items in the life-change inventory between people with and without an NDE are shown in table 4. For instance, people who had NDE had a significant increase in belief in an afterlife and decrease in fear of death compared with people who had not had this experience. Depth of NDE was linked to high scores in spiritual items such as interest in the meaning of one's own life, and social items such as showing love and accepting others. The 13 patients who had superficial NDE underwent the same specific transformational changes as those who had a core experience."
If you look at the chart in the study for the full analysis and list of the "significant differences in answers to 13 of the 34 items," you see that NDErs scored significantly higher in:
Showing own feelings
Acceptance of others
More loving, empathic
Understanding others
Involvement in family
Understand purpose of life
Sense inner meaning of life
Interest in spirituality
Belief in life after death
Interest in meaning of life
Understanding oneself
Appreciation of ordinary things
And lower in: Fear of death.
[Let me now digress to religious discussion, if not just this once, in order to more fully address your statement: "The most obvious proof that near death experiences are bull shit is how different they all are"]
Maybe the importance of NDEs is not what individuals actually perceive, but rather the impact of the experience--an aspect that experiencers evidently have significant congruence in. If I were God and wanted people to recognize My will--the importance of "showing love and accepting others" and the similar--I would not employ the same exact strategy for each individual person.
Why? Given the same set of information (or images), every person will handle and interpret that information differently. Having a static image/NDE thus may not be the most effective manner of communication.
Instead, by adapting the message (images, etc.) for each person, there is a better chance that the individual will comprehend it the way God intends, and make the changes that these NDE experiencers each and collectively have made.
Furthermore, their altered lifestyle becomes a living testimony illustrating what it means to "[show] love and [accept] others" and the similar. In this way, these Godly ideals would be reflected in their new-found personality as they now become a semi-embodiment of God's will/perspective on life. No doubt, this newfound loving/accepting attitude would have an impact upon those whom these individuals interact with. Furthermore, they still have their story to additionally tell of how they survived death, saw the light, and how they now see a deeper and more positive meaning of life--one which encompasses "showing love and accepting others" to a statistically significantly greater degree than the average. Not only they are changed for the better, but potentially those around them are, too. Maybe this is God's will.
The exact images that they perceived are thus only a mere/irrelevant stepping-stone on the path to instill this positive change and heavenly message.
I only present that as a possible explanation. There may be others. Undisputed, however, is the ultimate impact: that regardless of "medical, pharmacological, or psychological factors," they all move towards the ideals and virtues that have already been promoted by Christian doctrine for centuries.
(--Despite however weakly many Christians actually live up to it.)
Maybe this is just one more unique way for God to present that same message.
[--End of religious digression]
"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15)
The "Test of Life" is not whether you can blindly "worship and praise God”. The test in life is whether or not you can live your life according to virtue, and live a life that reverberates waves of positive energy, building people up, as Jesus His son perfectly exemplified. We can choose lives of virtue as is God's will, or to choose lives of selfishness, arrogance, and other vices which have led to the plague of humanity we have found on earth. If people choose vice, that is their choice. Do not judge them (1 Corinthians 5:12 ). But He sent Jesus as a prime example of virtue so that we could see the light and choose it, instead of poisoning the earth with lives of darkness. Many, including even "Christians," have failed in this regard. But Christianity is supposed to be the message of love, hope, faith, unity, and virtue, that creates heaven on Earth.
The "Test of Life" is not whether you can blindly "worship and praise God”. The test in life is whether or not you can live your life according to virtue, and live a life that reverberates waves of positive energy, building people up, as Jesus His son perfectly exemplified. We can choose lives of virtue as is God's will, or to choose lives of selfishness, arrogance, and other vices which have led to the plague of humanity we have found on earth. If people choose vice, that is their choice. Do not judge them (1 Corinthians 5:12 ). But He sent Jesus as a prime example of virtue so that we could see the light and choose it, instead of poisoning the earth with lives of darkness. Many, including even "Christians," have failed in this regard. But Christianity is supposed to be the message of love, hope, faith, unity, and virtue, that creates heaven on Earth.
