Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Souls, and Atheism

[Shell B]

It's cool. Everyone does it.

[Phaedra]

Have you ever tried to guess the length of a dream? I would assume these supposed near death experiences are much like that. It cannot be done by the person who experienced it.

This. That is exactly what it is like. I was dead for about 2 minutes, but I only know that because they told me.

[Rayaan]

From the moment that a person undergoes a cardiac arrest (which catches individuals off-guard), their blood circulation rapidly drops, and their brain function/activity approaches zero. At best, there would be the opportunity for distorted perception as everything speeds to a halt--but this would be far from creating such a vivid, real, and memorable experience.

The fact that there is a lack of blood flow to the brain doesn't actually mean that there is no activity in the brain at all. There still may be some activity.

See this:
How long does brain activity last after cardiac arrest?

Edit:
It says that all brain activity ends in about 3 to 4 minutes after the heart stops beating. I don't know if that's true or not.
If that is true, then I suppose the hallucinations occur within first few minutes, but I'm not sure.

[Willpower]

RE: "Oh, give me a break. I have had lucid dreams while half awake. People trip balls while fully awake. It is entirely possible to hallucinate while losing consciousness."
--It's not simply an issue of losing consciousness, but rather also an issue of losing electrical activity within the brain, and then subsequently completely losing brain function.

Let me start with the brain function part.
With regards to brain function, the Horizon Research Foundation states that "brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes" (though About.com says that it "is thought to be over by about 3-4 minutes from the moment the heart stops"). "The brain stop working as it runs out of oxygen and sugar (brought to the brain by blood flow supplied by the heart), blood gets trapped in the brain until it starts flowing again. That stale blood is accumulating acids, free radical oxygen molecules and other toxins while it sits there"--this is the trigger for brain damage.
So this essentially states that brain function (and control over your other bodily organs) completely stops at 2 minutes (or 3-4 minutes if you believe About.com to be a superior source).

Nevertheless, as I stated, the Horizon Research Foundation explained: "studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds." Electrical activity is the result of voltage fluctuations resulting from the ionic current flows within the neurons of the brain. The cessation of this electrical activity means that the neurons are no longer communicating.

Thus, the scenario of cardiac arrest patients is distinct from that of persons experiencing dreams/hallucinations.
When have dreams/hallucinations, there is measurable electronic activity in the brain. (It is not hard to find research on dreams and hallucinations by scientists who even graph this electronic activity--for instances, search "EEG Hallucinations" or "EEG Dreams").

During the physiological death that I described, however, there is electrical activity whatsoever. The person cannot be classified as dreaming or hallucinating if he is devoid of any electrical activity in the brain. If he were hallucinating or dreaming, the consequent electrical activity in the brain would be detectable as scientists have demonstrated numerous times before.
At best, you would have to assert that the "hallucination" or "dream" occurs within the first ten seconds of cardiac arrest, before the person's brain's electrical activities completely halt. Otherwise, a person cannot hallucinate or dream while in cardiac arrest.

And aside from this, communication between neurons and synapses are required to even form memories anyway (search: "memory and neurons", if you doubt me). This is to say: without electrical activity in the brain, the person incapable of forming the vivid memories of their near-death experience.


It's easy, at first, to say that cardiac-arrest-NDEs must be a dream or hallucination, but upon closer inspection, you see that dreams and hallucinations are inadequate explanations due the the lack of electrical activity within the brain.

[Shell B]

Listen, 19 out of 20 people who suffer sudden cardiac arrest die. Those who live are resuscitated within minutes. If I remember correctly, the likelihood of surviving lowers rapidly after the first 5-10 minutes. You are saying that all brain activity ceases, which is not possible, but we'll go with it. You say this occurs within 2 minutes. Okay, we'll go with that too. Even still, there would be 5-8 minutes of ceased brain activity (lol) before the patient was resuscitated -- tops. The patient loses consciousness within seconds of cardiac arrest, leaving 2 full minutes, at least, of brain activity. After cardiac arrest, patients are often kept in an induced coma, so the body can heal and various other reasons outside of my scope of knowledge. That leaves plenty of time for the patient to hallucinate and then associate it with a NDE.

About.com is one of the worst possible sources you could ever use. Just so you know.

---

From How Stuff Works

The brain can survive for up to about six minutes after the heart stops. The reason to learn cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is that if CPR is started within six minutes of cardiac arrest, the brain may survive the lack of oxygen. After about six minutes without CPR, however, the brain begins to die. (See How CPR Works to learn more about the procedure.) Prompt resuscitation allows the physician time to assess and treat the damaged brain. Medication and mechanical ventilation permit tissue oxygenation, but severe brain damage or a prolonged period without oxygen or glucose causes the death of the brain.
By definition, "brain death" is "when the entire brain, including the brain stem, has irreversibly lost all function." The legal time of death is "that time when a physician(s) has determined that the brain and the brain stem have irreversibly lost all neurological function."

About the veracity of traumatized cardiac arrest patients' claims:

From Richard G. Druss, MD; Donald S. Kornfeld, MD

Ten survivors of a cardiac arrest who had been treated in a cardiac monitor unit were studied by psychiatric interviews six weeks or more after arrest. Not a single patient could face the full implications of the arrest and called forth various defense mechanisms to control the anxiety evoked by this experience. Frightening and violent dreams belied their often tranquil appearance. The patients developed various theories and explanations to enable them to integrate the experience of "having been dead and reborn." The arrest survivors as well as ten comparative patients without arrest who had been treated in the same monitor unit showed long-standing emotional problems including insomnia, irritability, and a restriction of their activities often beyond what was medically appropriate.

[Rayaan]

About.com is one of the worst possible sources you could ever use. Just so you know.

I think that's true. I rarely even use anything from that website.

This time, however, I just typed the words "brain activity, cardiac arrest" on google and that's the one that happened to match what I was looking for.
I didn't bother to search too much. But yeah, there are much better websites for finding medical-related information.

[Shell B]

Oh, I didn't even realize yours was from about, if it was. I was talking about whatshisname's source. Most of what I found regarding brain death during cardiac arrest had to do with NDEs. My thinking is that it is a hyped up version of the truth that suits what people want to believe. It could be true, it could not be true. The bottom line is that it has nothing to do with god or atheism, either way. This is a sad attempt to make it look like NDEs are somehow proof of god.

[Welsh cake]

I was in a lot of abdominal pain once and my consultant had to put under investigation to determine what the problem was. Eventually I underwent a gastroenteroscopy and endoscopy procedure.

I was administrated sedatives to minimise the discomfort, and then I experienced, nothing. It was like a medically induced coma, except sedation is not supposed to do that, the patient is usually in a semi-conscious state.

I lost all consciousness, there wasn't even darkness. I was nothing. I didn't exist. Only when I regained my senses did I comprehend it was greater than any "religious NDE". For the first time in months I felt no pain. I was not aware of the procedure I was undergoing or instructions that were supposed to be given to me. Time and space were meaningless. Reality was nonsense. The shackles of identity, the binding ties of responsibility, and chains of existence had been removed.

It was bliss.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Anyone who has ever been unconscious knows this - except I wouldn't describe it as "bliss" but "nothing"

I'd like to know how xtians who have been unconscious and thus knowing the nothingness of that can resolve this and still believe that when they become everlastingly unconscious, that they somehow become conscious in a spirit form. There is just no good reason that would happen especially when we have evidence that shows what happens when you're unconscious.

[Ace Otana]

My question for you is, why the fuck would they have an EEG set up when treating for cardiac arrest? You also imply that cardiac arrest is equal to no brain activity.

He didn't answer that question, Shell.

That's something worth investigating. Why would an EEG have already been set up?
I would like to see the guy's medical reports. To help confirm a few things.
Sounds like a set up. Be nice if we could repeat this in a lab and try and confirm all this scientifically.
Because all we have here is a claim/hearsay but no support.
Also if the brain isn't active, it dies. We know this. Through lack of oxygen the brain will die gradually, hence people who have had oxygen starvation end up with speech problems, the ability to walk or move or even understand. Parts of the brain is permanently damaged, vital information is destroyed. If the brain lacks activity, it dies nearly instantly.

---

Time and space were meaningless. Reality was nonsense. The shackles of identity, the binding ties of responsibility, and chains of existence had been removed.

It was bliss.

That's why I'm not afraid of death. It's a state where time and space no longer have any meaning to you. No pain, no anger, no religious wackos.
Very blissful.