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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:48 pm
(This post was last modified: October 28, 2012 at 12:49 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(October 28, 2012 at 12:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (October 28, 2012 at 12:41 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You can't imagine a benefit that a conscious creature might have over an "unconscious" one?
I think again you aren't understanding the paradox from my perspective.
This is a strawman.
Did I misunderstand this statement?
(October 28, 2012 at 12:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: There needs to direction of non-conscious towards consciousness by process of survival of fittest.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:50 pm
All this talk about the impossibility of consciousness arising suddenly from unconsciousness positively reeks of the "what's the use of half an eye" canard. Maybe it is true that I don't understand what you're getting at; the problem, since I at least am trying to understand, could be that you need to explain better.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:50 pm
(This post was last modified: October 28, 2012 at 12:52 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
Is he asking: "Why does consciousness exist?"?
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:52 pm
I think it's more like "where does/did consciousness come from, since evolution can't possibly explain it". That's my limited understanding, of course.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:52 pm
(October 28, 2012 at 12:48 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (October 28, 2012 at 12:45 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I think again you aren't understanding the paradox from my perspective.
This is a strawman.
.......
"There needs to direction of non-conscious towards consciousness by process of survival of fittest."
Did I misunderstand this statement?
Again, it's just part of the paradox. One step is needed between consciousness and unconsciousness. It seems people agree with this. For example, we are formed by dna, and at one point, we aren't conscious, then we become conscious, no matter how weak that level of conscious is.
But such a step is complex, and needed direction (from DNA). The complexity doesn't allow it to be simply by one step of mutations.
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:57 pm
(This post was last modified: October 28, 2012 at 12:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
What part of what paradox (and at what point did I strawman you)?
Okay, again... a step is needed...please elaborate on this necessary step so that we can begin to have a discussion that isn't entirely comprised of you asserting things, me asking questions, and you responding with your assertion.
How can you begin to tell me that consciousness (or the step that expresses itself as such) is complex when you haven't defined what the hell we're talking about in the first place?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Define "conscious". Then I may give some form of opinion on the matter.
But, as Stimbo pointed out, this looks a lot like the argument of the eye... where you're trying to figure out when was the first time light stimulated a nerve which relayed that info to the brain.
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 12:59 pm
(This post was last modified: October 28, 2012 at 1:09 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
(October 28, 2012 at 12:52 pm)Stimbo Wrote: I think it's more like "where does/did consciousness come from, since evolution can't possibly explain it". That's my limited understanding, of course.
Okay, so it's more specific than I thought but that's still a question of why it exists. "Why does consciousness exist?", "Because evolutionary processes caused it to exist" is still an answer to the question.
(October 28, 2012 at 12:52 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: But such a step is complex, and needed direction (from DNA). The complexity doesn't allow it to be simply by one step of mutations.
Why can't one genetic step lead to consciousness? Consciousness is generally speaking complex, apparently (complex in what way?), but the first type of consciousness that ever formed may have been very simple. And even if the first ever type of consciousness was complex, why does that imply that it can't have happened in one genetic step? Aren't genes complex? Even atoms are complex when you think about it! They can be broken down to many smaller parts and then there's the quantum world behind all that too, and that's really complex!
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 1:03 pm
(October 28, 2012 at 12:57 pm)Rhythm Wrote: How can you begin to tell me that consciousness (or the step that expresses itself as such) is complex when you haven't defined what the hell we're talking about in the first place? This unfair, we don't need to fully understand something to know something about it. We do know if it's generated biologically/physically, it's very complex. Sure not as complex as our brains. But still very complex.
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RE: Theory number 3.
October 28, 2012 at 1:05 pm
(This post was last modified: October 28, 2012 at 1:08 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's fine Mystic, and without having full knowledge (not that I asked you for this in the first place, but whatevs), and conceding that the simplest of systems can be described as complex(though I get the feeling that whatever organism we end up with is going to be mighty simple), what system are we talking about?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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