Colorado parents of transgender 1st-grader file complaint over restroom ban

[Angrboda]

Allow me to take inventory.

Daniel is intimately familiar with the inside of a brothel.
And intimately familiar with the inside of a woman's restroom.
I'm tempted to ask if he's intimately familiar with the inside of a woman's vagina, but I won't.


I guess I only have one question. Daniel/Aractus, are you not in point of fact a male-to-female transsexual?

---

I've been doing my best to avoid getting drawn into this thread because I see no answer where people don't end up getting hurt in important ways.


But I want to offer my two cents on at least one thing. In my opinion, which is not particularly well informed, biological sex and gender refer to two distinct things. Biological sex refers to the sex typing of the development of the body, whereas gender refers to the sex typing of the development of the brain (there is some overlap because of things like the endocrine system). We know a good deal about this process with respect to the body, but there is a vast chasm of ignorance as to the specifics of the process of sex typing of the brain, and as with any aspect of the brain, there are multiple vectors (genetics, pre-natal and post-natal development, social and sexual environment, experience, hormonal, and so on). (I also want to stick in a note here that the whole question of a child's cognitive ability to form notions of gender and social roles at various ages in childhood is an important untouched question here, which surely relates to how we determine the needs and capacities of a six year old with reference to sex and gender identity.) And while the sex typing of the brain certainly includes laying down patterns of sexual arousal and sexual response, it also includes a whole host of other things related to personality traits, cognitive styles, self-image, and more. To attempt to reduce gender to it's association with sex typing of the body, or patterns of sexual arousal and response (most of which will develop considerably later than 6 years), is to my view either too narrow a view of gender, or the result of a different conception of gender, or simple confusion about what gender is, period. Given our current level of technological and ethical sophistication, if there is a mismatch between the sex typing of the body and the sex typing of the brain which results in distress, our only real, effective option at this point is to attempt to adjust the physical sex typing of the body to match the sex typing of the brain. It's not clear that we would or might do otherwise even if the technology were available. (see TEGH's thread on the question of "if homosexuality could be prevented...")

As to the question of this specific case, I have concerns about both sides. If forcing a 6 year old child to adopt social roles, behaviors, practices and an environment that is fundamentally at odds with the developmental process of sex typing in her brain, I think it eminently reasonable to expect said contradiction to also impact the development of a girl-girl if violations of that development are allowed to occur. (Though, perhaps likely to a much lesser extent.) We are, as a species, strongly dependent on taking our cues about sex and gender from our environment, such that our sexual arousal is basically a function of visual and auditory cues, the movement of the body, the pattern of dark and light that make up our ability to recognize and distinguish animal from human, human non-sex partner from human sex partner, and human sex partner sexual body part from human sex partner non-sexual body part ("Not in the eye!"). And part of our socio-sexual experience has to do with things like privacy and sacredness of the body. I'm not making an argument here, but I rather suspect that the idea that this separation of private spaces is simply a reflection of a prudish and immature society is a gross and inaccurate simplification. I have no idea what the science says on the question, but I rather suspect that the call to "abandon" our worries about exposing our nudity to either the public or members of the opposite sex (orientation, whatever) is less motivated by actual science and knowledge as much as it is by political or sexual ideology.


I guess I've come to the end of my rant. It came out more pear shaped than I had envisioned, but fuck it. I have places to be.
I may get a second opinion, but I'm worried that I'm not meeting my quota for raping straight-women in public restrooms.

gtg.

[Shell B]

TEGH, it is not unlikely. Those gaps are massive in some places. I accidentally see shit all the time. I also suggest logic courses become mandatory for people who are going to pretend they know how to debate formally in this forum.

QM, that was not directed at you.

Whateverist, I am savaging no one. I have no emotional horse in this race and do not care even remotely what other people think about it. It is highly unlikely that my preferred bathroom arrangement is going to change, so what do I have to be savage about?

[Violet]

I would be very surprised if a 6 year old was articulate enough to express their gender. Playing with dolls and liking dresses does not mean that a parent should determine something that will majorly affect them for the rest of their life. You can't get a 6 year old to tell you what they want for dinner but you think they can make gender identity decisions?

Also if you say you decided your gender that early, I'd say that you are projecting. Hormone levels also aren't that different between 6 year old boys and girls. All of those concerns of yours won't happen until puberty anyway.

Because a girl's brain is not remotely confused or concerned when she's arbitrarily struck away from the other girls in her class, right?

[Whateverist]

TEGH, it is not unlikely. Those gaps are massive in some places. I accidentally see shit all the time. I also suggest logic courses become mandatory for people who are going to pretend they know how to debate formally in this forum.

QM, that was not directed at you.

Whateverist, I am savaging no one. I have no emotional horse in this race and do not care even remotely what other people think about it. It is highly unlikely that my preferred bathroom arrangement is going to change, so what do I have to be savage about?

So what are you saying .. you and Violet won't be mud wrestling then? *sighs with disappointment*

[frankiej]

There are tons of places in Scotland with unisex toilets. It doesn't seem to cause any problems.
But I suppose we all wear skirts here anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

[Violet]

Violet, I don't understand why you can't address the issue at hand here, and why you feel the need to blow it way out of proportion with straw man arguments. Nothing about the school's ruling is about 1. intersex people or 2. adults who are transsexual.

My MO is to take the argument presented to me as far as it can go. If they'd like to remove my ability to do so, they'll just have to be more specific, Bob

1: How is the statement 'penis=boys room, vagina =girls room' not going to cause issues with intersex students who have both sex's sets of genitalia (however 'completely formed')?

2: Adults who are transsexual were often children who were transsexual... and having been a child with gender dysphoria, I have only bad memories of boys bathrooms, locker rooms, and I can still remember the feelings of dread, fear, and complete embarrassment of entering such rooms by necessity.

* Violet giggles a little.

I think my first bathroom uses at school were of the girl's room, then the teacher or assistant or whatever told me that I had to use the other one. I was five, mate... how was I supposed to understand the rationale behind that?

You're simply projecting the perceived "rights" of intersex and transsexual adults onto children who are neither intersex nor transsexual. This has nothing to do with your right to use the woman's restroom.

Evidence and the clinical opinion of someone more qualified than either of us would suggest that this child is infact transgendered.

I'm unconcerned with whether it be 'my right' to use the women's or not... I'm going to be doing it, regardless. I am, however... concerned about someone with the chance to never have to deal with 'the bathroom dilemma' (a major trans experience that few (if any) of us hold positively) being denied that chance in a place where it's actually illegal to do so

Further... it's not projecting: I'm a firm advocate of children's rights, regardless of their similarity/dissimilarity to me. I'm not one for segregating behavior, especially with things wholly out of a child's control... next thing you know, we'll be back to arguing for black people having to use different bathrooms (if they're allowed in at all, lol). Again... in colorado: doing that is illegal with transsexual people, a person isn't made any less black with being 6 years old, how is it any different with homosexual or transsexual people, or people with large moles on their face?

Your points on gender are also highly opinionated. Gender is biological. It isn't chromosomal, although in humans chromosomes generally determine a person's gender. People who are intersex are still either biologically male or female, humans are simply built that way and we can't be neither I'm afraid, nor can we be both. Would we expect there to be bathroom exceptions for intersex people? Of course. Does that mean they should be allowed to compete against women if they're biologically male in sports? Probably not.

Very wrong, sonny. Sex is biological, gender is a social compartmentalization of traits associated with the roles of 'the sexes'... ergo, if someone matches most of the traits of a particular gender (not necessarily a dichotomy, observe india and native americans): they are party to that compartment.

What determines a person's gender... is personality, and the roles which they take in society. Honestly, our gendering system being a dichotomy shows such a massive set of contradictory traits (independent working woman, stay-at-home dads) that I sometimes wish we'd just adopt the Qun

Intersex people are sometimes neither XY or XX (but of alternate conditions, like the previously alluded to XXY). Their sex chromosomes are often goofed in some form or another... but really, it's irrelevant.

Anyway... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_an...y_syndrome several of these women have participated in the olympics (often without even knowing they had the condition), I mean... http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/30/...r-20120730

What does being 'biologically male' even mean?

---

Ignoring the massive walls of text for the sake brevity and nonemotional discourse, if bathrooms are not split up according to genitals, explain why you can't get a fucking tampon in the men's room. Could it be because men don't have vaginas? I'm afraid that could be the very reason.

Tampons are great for nosebleeds, I don't really get the sexualization of a blood-absorbing device for bleeding holes. It's certainly be nice after being anally raped too... or having such a horrible pooping experience that you're bleeding.

Transmen have vaginas, and when they start using the mens, they sometimes have to deal with that (bring your own tampon(s), what a party!).

So, there's at least one type of person with a vagina in the men's room. Intersex individuals might be there either, and if they have functioning ovaries alongside that enormously engorged clit... that's going to suck too.

Baby tables are less common in men's bathrooms too... that couldn't possibly have anything to do with socially-observed gender expectations.

Bathrooms are designed according to genitals. You might not like it. You might think I am "appealing to authority," though appealing to rational design clearly makes more sense, but that is the way it is. Now, just as a lesson in what these logic terms you bandy about actually mean, an appeal to authority would go something like, "It is illegal for you to use the ladies room. Therefore, you should not use the ladies room." I said no such thing. The appeal to authority goes to Aractus, but I wouldn't expect anyone cares about the definitions of logic terms. *le sigh*

No... urinals are designed with accordance to genitals, and it's really the only readily observable difference between men's and women's bathrooms. It's also a device that is far less likely to be present in a person's home,

The bathrooms themselves are remarkably similar. The toilets and sinks are identical, mirrors in both if they're in either... though there's plenty of jokes about the difference between the bathrooms.



But they're just that... jokes. Now me, having been in both bathrooms, would like to point out the one key difference between them: the body type of the people within. If I go to the mens, I can expect it to be populated with boys and men... if I go to the womens, I can expect it to be populated with girls and women. I don't know about the genitals of anyone who isn't using the urinals... and it doesn't matter: the clear difference is in the general body shape, personalities, and cultural expectations.

I don't think you're appealing to any authority at all (what does an authority have to do or say regarding the gendered bathrooms dichotomy and with people's increasing levels of shame and discomfort with their bodies as we become a society with a vast amount more personal space?)... anyway, it's generally considered to be socially wrong (and assumed illegal) for a man to be in the women's.

And this is probably my sexism showing here: I don't hear about women being arrested or accosted for using the men's nearly as often as I hear tale of the other. Infact, I've never heard of it

---

I can't help you with Arachnis, but I do so hate to see you and Violet savaging each other. May I suggest a civilized alternative? Mudwrestling! The best way known way for two gals to clear the air .. no matter which bathroom their genitalia befit them to enter. Some say pillow fights are an acceptable alternative but I say no pain, no gain.

I don't savage people, as I am not Lillian the Barbarian

When a person makes an unreasonable blanket (especially if it's myself), they need to recognize that. Penises and vaginas simply aren't at the forefront of someone's mind when they are cordially interacting with/trying to ignore strangers (or at least, I certainly hope they aren't!).

/Sexism that is nonetheless what she feels: I'd feel significantly more threatened if a big burly man were to walk into my bathroom (even (especially) if I'm in the men's, lol)... I'm a hell of a lot less caring about his possible presence of penis than I am about the massive muscles, (possibly) agressive stance, and want to be out of there ASAP (poor gentle giants, have to deal with this bullshit rep).

[Shell B]

When you are post-op, you have the equipment for the ladies room. You're penis is not going to confuse anyone. Again, if you go back to my objections, it was about making it the norm for men to follow women into bathrooms and vice versa. I should point out the rape thing was not even at all my objection. It was a side note and I keep seeing it.

So, a tampon depository and tampon machine have nothing to do with genitals? As someone who has to use those things, I really beg to differ.

[Violet]

I'm not making an argument here, but I rather suspect that the idea that this separation of private spaces is simply a reflection of a prudish and immature society is a gross and inaccurate simplification. I have no idea what the science says on the question, but I rather suspect that the call to "abandon" our worries about exposing our nudity to either the public or members of the opposite sex (orientation, whatever) is less motivated by actual science and knowledge as much as it is by political or sexual ideology.

It's very likely that there is a human 'need' for privacy (of an extent), my concern is that people who are quite comfortable with their body and it's functions have to deal over-much with the sensibilities of those who would be offended by it ('so you're offended, so fucking what?'-fry). Some people are rather exhibitionistic... I wonder, that had I been born cis, if I would have been such a person.

I've argued that the likes of clothing reinforce feelings of shame (and they do) in some people... but so would visible hard-ons, or visibly hardening nipples and 'seeping' liquids. Really, I think there's some subjective terrain here, that is ruthelessly painted over with a single brush of 'what is culturally acceptable' and not (example, until 'recently': kissing one's homosexual lover in public may have been considered grossly culturally unacceptable). We can't really know where the political and cultural viewpoints on 'bathrooming' or public nudity (or even fucking in public) might end up in 20, 50, 100, 1000 years...

I guess I've come to the end of my rant. It came out more pear shaped than I had envisioned, but fuck it. I have places to be.
I may get a second opinion, but I'm worried that I'm not meeting my quota for raping straight-women in public restrooms.

gtg.

---

TEGH, it is not unlikely. Those gaps are massive in some places. I accidentally see shit all the time. I also suggest logic courses become mandatory for people who are going to pretend they know how to debate formally in this forum.

Because a course in logic is going to make a nonlogical person suddenly logical? Not saying they wouldn't learn anything from it... but it's funny to me.

Anyway: structural problems with bathrooms. I've been uncomfortable about them for *years*, changing in the men's locker room (inside the stall, always), or using the men's and women's restrooms. I'll typically find me the stall with the gap at an odd angle from the toilet.

Has nothing to do with the gender, penises or vaginas or other people in the room... it's just horrid structural design, and it would be a minimal cost to do a better job.

Whateverist, I am savaging no one. I have no emotional horse in this race and do not care even remotely what other people think about it. It is highly unlikely that my preferred bathroom arrangement is going to change, so what do I have to be savage about?

Well... you're current bathroom arrangement already has transwomen in it (pre-op ones). It also has people infected with various STIs in it, sitting on the same toilet's you're going to be sitting on.

Of the two 'issues(?)', I'd consider the latter far more concerning, especially given the apparent unsanitary conditions of said bathroom. Heaven's forbid you grab the handle of the door with your digets, and touch your face near your mouth afterwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkPNXRaAHG0

Or more likely, herpes

---

So what are you saying .. you and Violet won't be mud wrestling then? *sighs with disappointment*

Not till I have a vagina of my own... but after the scars heal, I'm totally down for it

---

When you are post-op, you have the equipment for the ladies room. You're penis is not going to confuse anyone. Again, if you go back to my objections, it was about making it the norm for men to follow women into bathrooms and vice versa. I should point out the rape thing was not even at all my objection. It was a side note and I keep seeing it.

I have 'the equipment' for the ladies room right now... I've got a shitter, and I've got a urethra. Why do I need to have an additional hole for the explicit purpose of being fucked... to be considered 'ready to use the women's bathroom'? Why does someone need a shlong to use a stall in the men's room?

My penis is not going to confuse anyone, Shell... since nobody is going to be seeing it. And even if they did see it, and it did confuse them: why would their confusion matter? Are they going to hurt themselves in their confusion? A person might be an obvious girl from head to toe, with the only exception on her body being a small difference at the crotch... a person might be an obvious man from head to toe, with the only exception on his body being a small difference at the crotch: why does this tiny difference outweigh the form/clothing/facial/personality differences between these two people? That's positively Freudian XD

Why would there be any problems with men 'following' women into bathrooms if rape or assault is not the issue? That's why you keep seeing it... because I (and I don't seem to be alone, here) don't understand what the issue is if it is not one of this, especially given that your earlier concern was one of 'safety' and 'harm'.

So, a tampon depository and tampon machine have nothing to do with genitals? As someone who has to use those things, I really beg to differ.

Have you ever had a nosebleed? Or bled rectally? As someone with a brother who has used them for his significant nosebleeds, I really beg to differ. As someone who has used them a few times with moderate rectal bleeding (used to be a 'habit' of mine to keep poop inside me for about a week), they work a lot better for me than having to just sit on the toilet an extra hour for it to heal up.

I think that the social expectation of tampons for only going in the vagina is ridiculous, and a major waste of tissue and toilet paper.

[Shell B]

No, it would teach a person who uses logic terms incorrectly to use them correctly.

Most people do not use tampons for nosebleeds, Lilly.

I think that the social expectation of tampons for only going in the vagina is ridiculous, and a major waste of tissue and toilet paper.

Seriously? They were invented for that. I honestly do not care what people use tampons for, but they are designed specifically to enter a vagina and stop menstrual blood from coming out of it. I'm not entirely sure there is a "social expectation" on this topic. I'm afraid that railing against social norms where there is no morass in regard to that norm is a lot of defiance for the sake of being defiant.

Lilly, this is not about your schlong, honey. I am entirely certain you can contain it, but you cannot speak for everyone with a dick who wants to go into the ladies room.

Who in the world said that women are going to rape each other in the bathroom, Apo? It certainly was not me. These arguments are not being followed very well.

Anyway, I have stated my opinion and I have no desire to be agreed with an have nothing more to add. Ciao, dears. I'm off to work.

[Something completely different]

what is this thread about?