(March 2, 2013 at 3:13 am)Shell B Wrote: Well, I hate to be the stick in the mud, but gender is not arbitrary by a long shot. Perhaps I am being a stickler for the definition of the word arbitrary, but I think we all know there are differences between male and female. I have to agree with those here who say that is awfully young to be concerned about gender. Do I care overly much how the child came to be confused or sure about his or her gender? Nope. It's mostly irrelevant. What is relevant is that boy means penis and girl means vagina in terms of a bathroom.

Considering that gender is a social construction and is compartmentalizing at a basic form, I'm going to have to disagree that gender is not arbitrated... because the differences between males and females reduce 'gender' down to essentially two basic points: does it grow babies inside of it: woman, and does it infect women with parasites: man.

Basically, if we're going to boil 'gender' as a social understanding of roles and responsibilities down to only implicating differences between the sexes of male and female (and heaven forbid we get an outlier, like XXY)... the differences between gender primarily implicate only reproductive interests, and hence are largely dismissible for any other nonrelated interest (from hunting and foraging to engineering and home-making, utterly irrelevant).

As for 'boy means penis' and 'girl means vagina' for bathroom... it'd sure be a shame to be an intersex individual with partial 'manparts' and 'ladyparts' and being told they are barred from both bathrooms, forced into exclusionary conditions from their peers on a basis they might otherwise not even be aware of otherwise. Further... if boy means penis for terms of bathroom usage, then you've basically stated that I (a rather petite, feminine woman-looking purse-toting lipstick-wearing long-haired person in women's clothing) should use the men's bathroom, on basis of my possession of penis.

Actually, I did just that the other day, since I went out without shaving my face and had a serious case of the runs. Still, in Kroger's poor lighting (hey, it wasn't much hair...), I kind of freaked out a 10 year old boy who opened up the only stall, and he told me that I was in the wrong room.

Quote:I see a lot of, "Let her use whatever bathroom she likes. They're just kids. No harm." Well, you could be right, but I do not see a single shit given for the long term. What happens when said kids are not little anymore? Boy, girl, banana, I don't give a shit. I don't want a vagina in my teen nephew's bathroom or a penis in my teen niece's bathroom. I give not a single shit if it is attached to a dress wearer or a pants wearer or a tree. Unisex bathrooms? Seriously. Adults do not even have those. I would be extraordinarily uncomfortable if I had to change a tampon in a unisex bathroom or were alone with a strange man in a bathroom. Now, back to the point of this child, she has a penis and will presumably continue to have one until she is an adult. Since "oh, just let them do it" is not going to work in a teen restroom, the child should be assimilated to reality as soon as possible. She has to use the boy's room or perhaps the nurse's office. C'est la vie. I personally think it would be more harmful to cater to it now and have reality slap her in the face later than to just explain the difficulties to her right away.

See now... that's just sexism. I get it too... but I understand it's a wholly irrational fear. I am unconcerned if my children have vaginas or penises in their bathrooms... I'm much more concerned as to if they're being bullied or made uncomfortable in their bathrooms. What I'd like is a safe environment for my children, penises and vaginas do not make an environment suddenly unsafe (although... attached STIs might).

Given how 'open' her parents seem to be regarding her transsexuality, it's actually quite possible that she'll have her surgery while still considered a minor in her state. SRS could conceivably happen for her as early as 12. 'Oh, just let them do it' works fine in a teen restroom... unless you're willing to suddenly forget that homosexuality exists and is becoming far more socially accepted among teenagers

If you're going to ban her from a bathroom on the basis of her having a penis (god forbid! A penis! That'll surely show when she's standing in front of the bathroom mirror), I'd like to ban her from the other bathroom on the basis of looking like she belongs in the other bathroom, the one where she's banned.

My gods, if only I could have used a nurse's bathroom when I desperately needed to go in high school, and felt completely uncomfortable and terrified in the boy's, but felt also like I might disturb those who go to the girl's. The good old bathroom dilemma of transgendered folk... innit the most wonderful irritation ever? I'd even stand outside both restrooms and patiently wait for everyone to leave either one of them before entering... and once inside go head-down mousemode if another soul entered whilst I was in there. I'd feel embarrassed as hell if I went to the men's, and I'd hope nobody was watching me if I went to the women's. It's wonderful to look the part of the bathroom you'd prefer to be in... not that I'd be allowed in the women's under an understanding that 'boy's restroom equals penis/girl's restroom equals vagina'.

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(March 2, 2013 at 3:59 am)Ryantology Wrote: I would like to take the opportunity to raise a point which is tangentially related to this topic:

The only reason this is an issue is because we have gender-separate restrooms in public places. Though there are reasons for that, they are reasons which would largely be invalidated if all public toilets were enclosed by stalls.

Should public restrooms be integrated?

I believe it would go a long ways towards revealing to women that most men are not out to rape them, and a long ways towards dealing with men feeling weird around women.

You know me... I've never been for all that segregation in the first place. Creates issues where issues shouldn't be. Gotta love culture for that.

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(March 2, 2013 at 10:34 am)John V Wrote: Would you be comfortable if it were TJ or VLB in the bathroom with you, or rather a similar stranger?

Of course she wouldn't be.... didn't you know: lezzies should be segregated from 'all the normal girls'

(Just having a good chuckle at the logical conclusion of your argument, shelly. I'm sure you'd never argue this... although, I've been surprised before).

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(March 2, 2013 at 1:56 pm)EGross Wrote: Fine, then I'm Jesus Christ, because I say so. And nobody can say I am not!

BOW TO MY DIVINE PRESENCE!

I wasn't aware there was a biological difference between you and Jesus Christ.

Fucking arabs, think they own the planet.

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(March 2, 2013 at 2:29 pm)John V Wrote: Note that I said "to me," not "by me." You're actually ridiculing other atheists.

In that other thread I was criticized for saying that terms such as man, woman, male and female were tied to biology. Atheists say the same thing in this thread, and no complaints. Go figure.

Hey, I'm complaining! I use the same set of rules for everybody. I can't help it if the masses of this forum are so hypocritical as to support trans rights and then suggest that there isn't an issue regarding a transsexual's bathroom use It's not like the world is just full of gentlemen who want to make a woman's use of their restroom as painless and rapid as possible -_- Or maybe it is... I'm not in it often enough to tell :S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1l7N-WLa3Q

May the gods help you if you manage to break MY RULES

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(March 2, 2013 at 2:33 pm)EGross Wrote: Ok, so we got stupid athiests just like we got stupid believers!

No kidding... have you met some of these people? It's enough to make me wonder if stupidity just runs deep in the atheist genes.

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(March 2, 2013 at 2:47 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: I agree about unisex restrooms but the designation of gender soley on what organ you have between your legs seems too simplistic. If you have a kid who feels, acts, and looks (clothed) like a girl, why should we still treat the kid like a boy?

Because we want to ensure they have the maximal level of guilt for not being a boy as can be possibly achieved. And it takes only a minimal effort, to boot!

(March 4, 2013 at 5:41 am)Violet Lilly Blossom Wrote: Considering that gender is a social construction and is compartmentalizing at a basic form, I'm going to have to disagree that gender is not arbitrated... because the differences between males and females reduce 'gender' down to essentially two basic points: does it grow babies inside of it: woman, and does it infect women with parasites: man.

Basically, if we're going to boil 'gender' as a social understanding of roles and responsibilities down to only implicating differences between the sexes of male and female (and heaven forbid we get an outlier, like XXY)... the differences between gender primarily implicate only reproductive interests, and hence are largely dismissible for any other nonrelated interest (from hunting and foraging to engineering and home-making, utterly irrelevant).

As for 'boy means penis' and 'girl means vagina' for bathroom... it'd sure be a shame to be an intersex individual with partial 'manparts' and 'ladyparts' and being told they are barred from both bathrooms, forced into exclusionary conditions from their peers on a basis they might otherwise not even be aware of otherwise. Further... if boy means penis for terms of bathroom usage, then you've basically stated that I (a rather petite, feminine woman-looking purse-toting lipstick-wearing long-haired person in women's clothing) should use the men's bathroom, on basis of my possession of penis.

Violet, I don't understand why you can't address the issue at hand here, and why you feel the need to blow it way out of proportion with straw man arguments. Nothing about the school's ruling is about 1. intersex people or 2. adults who are transsexual.

You're simply projecting the perceived "rights" of intersex and transsexual adults onto children who are neither intersex nor transsexual. This has nothing to do with your right to use the woman's restroom.

Your points on gender are also highly opinionated. Gender is biological. It isn't chromosomal, although in humans chromosomes generally determine a person's gender. People who are intersex are still either biologically male or female, humans are simply built that way and we can't be neither I'm afraid, nor can we be both. Would we expect there to be bathroom exceptions for intersex people? Of course. Does that mean they should be allowed to compete against women if they're biologically male in sports? Probably not.

(March 2, 2013 at 3:10 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: You're committing the appeal to definition fallacy. Just because the boys bathroom nowadays is defined as the place where humans with penises go doesn't mean it should be defined that way.

This is not unlike how fundies say gay marriage is wrong because marriage is "defined as between a man and a woman."

Funny, here I thought it was an argument from establishment, oft-defended with an argument from authority

But your phrase works too This is actually getting to be fun. I hope nobody says something so supremely stupid in the rest of these pages that it ruins my good mood ^_^

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(March 2, 2013 at 3:27 pm)EGross Wrote: Wrong.

When it comes to a 6 year old we are not talking about his sexual desires. We are talking about how he likes to dress up and play, and his parents are pushing a fantasy agenda "Pssst, don't call him a him". The bathroom is being used because it is the only point they can push because the school is living in a reality they don't want to share. They can't sue because the teacher refuses to use the feminin pronoun.

This really is not about the kid at all. He is their plaything. A 6 year old who has no sexual fetish, but just likes dolls and dressup.

Funny... I never realized that transsexualism was a sexual fetish, but I suppose it must be one for somebody out there, I mean... tentacles and shit-eating, people.

*coughs*

It probably is like this, but it's just supposition on our part. We weren't the psychologist the parents went to who said 'your child is a girl', we really have no clue in the world. Why we're even discussing this case after recognizing that we're projecting is beyond me... unless we haven't realized that yet, in which case: do carry on good sir

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(March 2, 2013 at 3:37 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I actually thought of coming to your defense in that thread, but then remembered how you consistently act like a douche.

If ya want, you can totally question everything I've ever suggested anywhere, and please talk to me about it I like good debate, discussion... actually finding the very best definition at our disposal for various tasks (example... I'm wholly forefront about my being a male woman, I am also totally kosher with neither being male nor woman depending on definition used.).

Unfortunately, I usually just get a 'THIS IS THE FUCKING OFFICIAL DEFINITION' 'Well, it's inaccurate' shouting match.

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(March 2, 2013 at 3:44 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: And you know this how? Transgendered adults will often tell you that they felt being in the wrong gender from early on. It didn't just hit them at 13.

Depends... define 'hit them'? Because as I think of it... it 'hit me' on my 13th birthday, lying in bed next to a guy I'd just blown. Certainly, I'd asked the question many a time before then of 'would you still love me... if I were a girl?' or 'would you disown me if I were a girl?', but I wasn't wholly secure in my understanding of my gender until that night.

I really disliked being separated from the other girls, though... typically, my imagination had me cast as a girl from very early on (I actually cannot think of any single imagining where I was a guy... because even if I started one with a guy character, they were usually a girl by the end of the fantasy world. Magic OP).

Quote:And since when is transgenderism a "fetish"?

Since men started buying 'tranny porn', I guess. I'm just impressed that it's as marketable as it is

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(March 2, 2013 at 3:48 pm)EGross Wrote: In the Phsychological world, when you apply the need to wear things that are not considered a societal norm (like men wearing womens underwear), it is called a "fetish". For a 6-year old, I would never consider it as one, but since you are attaching it to a sexual connection repeatedly, then the term reasonably applies.

Cross-dresser's normally, while presenting a lie, do not deny the truth. Those who hide are subject to fetishism, while those who do not, are excluded.

But since there is no reason in thie thread, I'll just let it die.

Honey... that's transvestitism. Not exactly the same thing as transsexualism (or the slightly broader but still morphologically inaccurate 'transgenderism').

Maybe, if you were interested in finding reason, your first place to go might not be gross misappropriation of terms that have nothing to do with the subject at hand

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(March 2, 2013 at 3:56 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: You are confusing the obsession of a specific object that would make one sexually aroused with the use of objects like clothing that would communicate the person's identity. The former is for the purpose of sex, the latter is for the purpose of identity.

Identity, or self-expression. Really, they're about the same. I know that I was a major fan of a red ballerina costume when I was 5-7 or some age... and that my parents told me to take it off

It was depressing that my sister and her friend later got to wear that same costume with absolutely no issue from my parents. Much less that wonderfully shocked feeling of seeing myself in a purple dress in 4th grade, suddenly feeling secure in myself, content, and even a little shy.

Not that my parents would allow me to wear it for longer than the school 'play/event' I made which involved a grand candy-heist from the girls by sneaking into their society. Ahhhhh... so creative was I, and yet I didn't contest wearing clothing like the dress nearly hard enough with my parents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DSSFJJ5Wo4

Ah well... missed opportunities.

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(March 2, 2013 at 9:57 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Unisex bathrooms for the school issue isn't going to take away the issue completely, yes ShellB. When they're adults they'll have to do what they do now because it's not plausible to demand unisex bathrooms for all accommodations.

Sure it is. Hang a unisex sign over the men/women signs... viola: unisex bathrooms.

Fuck urinals, but that's a personal thing... it was always a little unsettling/amusing/embarrassing for me to see guys with their dicks out staring dead-forward, refusing to look at the guy next to them doing the same thing.



I'd say it was hot, but it was really far too ridiculous for me to find any particular pleasure in.

Quote:Truth of the matter is, they go into the bathroom they identify with in the end anyways, don't they? I see the implications of where this would be going--require unisex bathrooms by law. Or god forbid make it illegal for them to use the bathroom of their choice.

Hopefully yes, as it means they're dealing with the hand nature dealt them... and typically won't be dealing with the dysphoria on top of everything else by then. Of course... maybe life decided to just shit all over them, in which case they were kinda screwed regardless... sucks to be them.

In the words of one of my best friends: "Being trans is one giant clusterfuck."

I simply can't imagine any way in which putting a petite woman in the mens room might give someone the wrong idea. However... I can certainly imagine a transwoman who definitely doesn't "pass" getting clocked by a man with a not-insignificant level of trans hate...

Or the cops being called when a transman enters the women's. I am completely incapable of envisioning how that might go poorly.

Quote:But I don't see the public restroom issue as being the same as the school restroom issue. I believe that since they are kids we do have a responsibility to protect them from all iniquities, and making a girl go into a boy bathroom is wrong and likewise. Not to mention making girls go to the bathroom with a boy and likewise. It's different at school than it is when you're in public--no one knows your true gender. If they identify as a girl (she damn near fooled me!) and cannot go to the girls bathroom then it's not too much to require a unisex bathroom in schools.

I'm a particular fan of unisex bathrooms. I've heard some truly hilarious arguments against them, such as 'a man might come in and bug the room!'... I think the whole segregated sexes thing is altogether rather sexist.

It's pretty easy to pass at 6... the boys and girls all look the same

Quote:I think it is preferable than giving her special instructions for going to the bathroom and making her feel picked out by having to go to the nurses office or dealing with adults looking at you in the office just because you gotta go to the restroom. One should be able to feel normal when going the bathroom is my point. She has rights too, how would you feel if you couldn't use either of the bathrooms and had to go to the office to get a key for the teacher's bathroom? And I hate to say it, but she might not be 'confused' about her sexual identity at all. Maybe it's us who are confused!

Oh gods... you have to get a key to use it? Like... routinely get a key? That's fucked up.

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(March 2, 2013 at 10:47 pm)TaraJo Wrote: But, really, what is the problem with her using the women's room? I mean, I'm willing to bet had nobody brought this up, she would have been able to live her life like a normal, average little girl. Now she got thrown into the middle of a media shitstorm, effectively outing her to the entire school. She may have had lots of friends before, but there's a good chance that a lot of her friends' parents won't let them play with her anymore (or they're going to tell their kids how evil and sinful she is). This may have done some serious damage to her childhood.

This is my biggest concern with the story... I'm fairly aghast that parents willing to even consider that their child might be trans would not recognize what outing someone does to them.

I got hit hard with the whole 'nobody being allowed to come over to my house' or even talk to me after I came out (I was 13). It's not even just her childhood which might have been wrecked here... shit gets serious in upper elemtary school, middle school, and high school, the bullying which she's likely to go through is absolutely unreasonable, and I have serious trouble believing that the parents would ever challenge the issue in such a public manner if they gave a rat's ass about her.

Makes me think the parents are really out for attention... and if she is indeed trans, then they're essentially making her a spectacle. 'Come look at our freak daughter...'

Quote:And, no, I don't think she's confused. My standing rule is, if someone personally identifies as a girl, I treat them like a girl. I know some people think she's bit young, but at what age do we decide she's not too young to determine her gender? At 10? Or 12? Or 16 or 18? The longer you wait, the more difficult transition is, especially after puberty sets in and you start having to deal with hormones you don't want. If she's allowed to transition now, she may be able to avoid growing facial hair (saving her time, money and pain from electrolysis), more masculine build (making clothes shopping more difficult) and a deepening voice. I don't want to be the one who tells a young lady that she has to undergo boy-puberty before I'll consider her a girl; do you?

The age where people suddenly start accepting that humans make decisions and have personality is arbitrary.

I'd wait a few years at this point and see where things go... but I'd absolutely give HRT before puberty if it was urgently enough requested of me, or if I was asked to allow it for long enough. Having been through it... I would never wish it on anyone.

(March 2, 2013 at 10:48 pm)Shell B Wrote: I didn't say definitely confused. If you look at my post more carefully, I allowed for either scenario. The bottom line is that bathrooms are based on our genitals. They are not based on gender. If you have a penis, you go to the penis room and vice versa. I do not see it harming the child. Besides, you are arguing for unisex bathrooms in the same breath as arguing against making a girl go with the boys. It's asinine. She does have rights. So do the girls who have vaginas whose bathroom this little girl with a penis would be using. Penis goes to penis room. That is the very reason for the divide.

I would argue that bathrooms are based on adult 'body types', and that their children are expected to follow this culturally. Unless you're using the urinal in the men's: how does having a penis have to do with the bathrooms? Urinals didn't used to exist, ffs... roman society (which featured aqueducts and public toilets) and japan (in some places) got/get by just fine without this nonsensical divide.

I challenge, rather: How does a penis or vagina impact a restroom experience more than a large mole on someone's ass? How can it matter more than the combined experience of clothing choice, hairstyle, body fat distribution, mannerisms, and masculinity/femininity of another person in your bathroom... especially in a case like mine where you would neither see nor suspect the presence of penis?

I'd note... the sign for the men's room assumes a man wearing a suit, the sign for the women's is woman in a dress. Not a penis and a vagina

Quote:Besides, this child is six fucking years old. Coddle her now and pretend that she is run-of-the-mill and she is going to have a hell of a shock ahead. Better get her used to the fact that she is has a very important part that biological girls do not.

She's likely already aware that she's different if she's come to this conclusion herself... how is treating her as a woman should be treated somehow 'coddling'? I wouldn't treat a boy particularly differently for having a prosthetic limb (which few of his peers are likely to posses)... and I certainly would never randomly segregate him from his peers, regardless of whether it might be mildly unsettling for them or not.

How about castrated boys? Where are they to be sent: the vagina room is short a hole, and the penis room short a stick... should we go ahead and ban him from both rooms? Oh, and let's publicly out him for not having a dick, best we don't allow there to be a secret absence of penis on the lad.

Quote:I was asked earlier if I would feel uncomfortable going to the bathroom with TaraJo or Lilly present. My answer to that is I know Lilly and she is my friend. Of course I would not feel uncomfortable. I piss around guy friends and girl friends. I do not know TaraJo personally. Yes, I might feel slightly uncomfortable knowing there was a secret penis in the restroom. It is nothing against being transgender. It is about having a penis. Assuming I know nothing about this person, I do not want a grown biological male in the same bathroom as my niece. I do not want a grown biological woman in the same bathroom as my nephew either. If this is really that big of a fucking deal, why not make a pre-op trans bathroom and say fuck it? You can't pretend she is biologically female.

How about lesbians, then? Or gay men?

I really cannot understand how a sexual organ being the basis for the discrimination could possibly be for anything other than a sexual reason... what am I missing here, Shell?

Quote:You honestly think that giving hormone therapy to a six-year-old who likely cannot even ride a bike without training wheels yet is okay, Tara? She can wear whatever she wants. If her parents opt for any medical treatment, I would want the child taken away from them.

I could ride a bike without training wheels by six... crashed occasionally, but way my parents figured it: gotta fall to learn how to to get up.

Maybe we should also bar depressed children/teens from medical treatment... wouldn't want to mess with their heads, or anything

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(March 2, 2013 at 10:54 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: In places where I've worked, the men's bathrooms are quite lax on their need for doors, even for the stalls. I would feel weird going in there, wouldn't you? I would feel weird seeing men's penises on a daily basis too. Since schools require gender identification, it's only right that they accommodate all genders including transgender. Irregardless if their transgender is just a 'phase'.

I will forever be an eternal fan of how it seems every toilet can be covered in droplets of piss... at the least they could clean up after themselves, I mean fuck: tissue is RIGHT THERE.

All genders... including the genderqueer*, or ungendered. Transgendered people (as we've been considering the term thus far in this thread) are often wholly applicable to 'boy' and 'girl'.

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:12 pm)Shell B Wrote: Yes, having single bathrooms is a good solution. A great solution, really.

Tara, the only time I ever see bathroom issues come up in the news, it is because someone was raped or assaulted in one. If we make it so it is not suspicious for a man to follow a woman into a public restroom, it could result in problems. Sure, it might not, but I might be biased. A girl was murdered in a restroom at a rest stop near here. The same goes for women following boys into the bathroom. I am not okay with grown women using the bathroom with my nephews. There are a real reasons why they are separate. Ignore them if you want, but they are real. Also, I like being able to go to the bathroom without any men in there. Is that such a crime?

Not to say you're not aware of this... but women assault other women in the women's restroom, and men assault other men in the men's restroom. Rape can occur in each as well.

You're just biased, it's okay... it's a cultural bias that is pretty much expected of just about everyone. Women murder women, men murder men... it's not as though the overwhelming percentage of murders are cross-gender murders, infact... murder of women is generally frowned upon, and most murder is man-man.

Off of pure statistics... you should feel safer bathrooming around total strangers, as it's the people you know who're gonna get you good

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:20 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: But the transgendered woman would be attracted to men so she wouldn't pose a threat to you.

Might be... transsexuality is separate from sexuality, even if it has the latter in its name. A transgendered individual might have any sexual preference in the world (or even be asexual)... and that interest may do a 180 when they're on HRT, but the two are not one and the same

I know a few lesbian transwomen, and I know a few straight transwomen. I know a few gay transmen, and I know a few straight transmen.

Me? Well... do icicles grow off the floor of a cave?

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:25 pm)Minimalist Wrote: The only people who should be concerned about the sexuality of a six year old are catholic priests.

Wouldn't it be just funny if homosexual children were exorcized, or taken to a gay detox camp, or socially barred from using their proper bathroom, regardless of adult behest?

Transsexuality isn't a question of the child's sexuality, amusingly enough, but of their gender.

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:27 pm)Shell B Wrote: Wait a minute, tegh. Since when are all transgender women attracted to men?

I'm not worried about a threat to me. I fucking dare someone to try. It's other people I worry about. All the time, actually.

Ehhh... if I tried to be a threat to you, we'd both probably wind up dead out of it... given that I like to be extremely thorough You're not the only one with OCD, yknow... mine's just not nearly as advanced~

I worry about people if they aren't home by around the time they say they'll be home, I try to not get antsy about people beyond my scope. I keep tabs on occasion, and otherwise just [/i]trust people

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:36 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: Not all obviously but I'd guess it'd be a majority.

I'd guess you're right, but then... I have only met 'a few' others

Quote:But even with let's say lesbian transgendered or bisexual transgendered women, with all the hormone therapy can they even still use their penises sexually? And if they could, would they want to? Because I thought they would rather have vaginas.

Sure, go ahead and use the penis... semen probably won't be coming out of it if you orgasm.

As for 'would they want to'... probably not, but how could I know? I'd have to get inside the head of a rapist... and try as though I might, I can never seem to answer the 'why' adequately. Probably because I'm biased and seek justification of some sort... hehe, to think 'I sometimes become a monster' might work on a young mind.

Quote:And would they be any more threatening than natural women lesbians? A lesbian could rape too with a strap on, or even without one for that matter.

You know what the best thing about about the human body? Fingers. If I were going for a show of domination to sate darker sexual interests than I posses... I know what I'd be doing to someone, and it sure don't include any appended floppy device of annoyance and turn-offs.

Not that a submissive bitch like me gets many chances to show off that side of her

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:38 pm)Shell B Wrote:

Quote:Estrogen may cause growth to slow or stop early in children who take large doses for a long time. Estrogen may also affect the timing and speed of sexual development in children.

And a slew of other side effects http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/drugi...de-effects

So, pretty much fuck any parent who thinks gender identity in a prepubescent child is important enough to risk the health of a six-year-old.

My question is 'why would you be giving (significant) HRT to someone who hasn't even started going through puberty yet?'

HRT, if done properly, should lead to the identical (or nearly so) results of natural puberty.

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:40 pm)missluckie26 Wrote: Yeah, there's not really any way to monitor bathroom usage based on personal sexual preference. I know this though, and go to the bathroom at my own risk. Not once has anyone hit on me in the bathroom so I think we're safe Maybe that's why it's down to anatomy as the determining factor for those making the laws. For all the reasons TaraJo just mentioned, I feel that the one room uni bathroom for those who can't go in either, is a necessity if we're to be civilized about it.

I've been bullied to various (relatively minor) degrees in bathrooms... and somehow I rather doubt that having a one-room unisex bathroom would have done a heck of a lot to stop it, though it would have definitely been an ease for my poor bladder

Still of the opinion that the segregation does little good for us, and assists in perpetuating cultural (gender) stereotypes.

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(March 2, 2013 at 11:42 pm)Shell B Wrote: Hardly matters. They have penises. Penises do not belong in ladies rooms. You can see slightly through the cracks in doors. It's not all about rape or assault, nor have I even slightly made it such.

Sounds like a structural change would do a great deal more good than a ban on who is allowed to use the toilet in question.

I'm not prudish enough to care if I happen across a penis or vagina ever so briefly in an impaired viewport when I have full capacity to avert my eyes if I care to give them the same respect I'd hope they'd give me.

Quote:Again, we're not just talking about rape. However, if we were, I would take a lesser risk than the obvious greater risk. Not to mention the fact that, when I talked about rape, I was not talking about transgender individuals raping people. I was talking about unisex bathrooms making it not suspicious for men to follow women into bathrooms and vice versa. Are you purposely moving the goalposts?

Considering that it shouldn't be suspicious in the first place, given that at least some 90% of men are not rapists, and most of those who are wouldn't feel comfortable raping someone they don't know in a public place (though some might enjoy the additional adrenaline) for any large multitude of reasons.

That it is more suspicious for a member of an opposite gender to 'follow' another person into a bathroom than it is for a member of one's own gender to do so is a cultural failing of this era. That it might be considered suspicious at all (without evidence of 'reasonably suspicious activity') is a failure of trust in a paranoid self-centered culture of fear...

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ETA: Now, I do not mind if transgender individuals use the bathroom so much that I would put up a stink about civilized individuals doing it without making it obvious or making some point about it. There is no harm if no one notices. There is harm if your dick is swinging while you are peeing or you are peeing with your ass to the door, which I previously mentioned a child might easily see through unwittingly.
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So potty train her to pee sitting down? I've still never 'grasped' the whole 'pee standing up thing'. Anyway... why would anyone care if a person was peeing standing up or squatting or whatever?

Especially when they are six... why would they care? Hell, at that age... I'd be surprised if they recognized pissing while standing to be so profound as to question the womanhood of their peers.

(March 3, 2013 at 12:04 am)Aractus Wrote: Wow Tara, you have completely missed what I think the most important point is - and I brought it up yet no one has discussed it. This is a matter for the school, and it's their right to make a decision, in this case they cannot make everyone happy, but they still have to make a decision and parents should respect the rules that the School has. In fact - when you send your child to a school, you are agreeing to abide by their rules.

Schools have enough things to worry about without having renegade parents who are unhappy with the school rules that they agreed to when they sent their children there.

Sooo... about that whole segregation thing. Something about schools making a stance to not allow black children to learn alongside white children? Yup, the school has every right to be just as much of a dick as it wants to be

Though, I'm with you to an extent. Were it my child, and she felt badly enough about the bathroom trauma I got to 'enjoy' for most of my life, I'd absolutely pull her out of that school and stick her in another. Or homeschool her, if every school decided to be an ass about a little girl's piss

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(March 3, 2013 at 12:07 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: @Aractus

So we're not allowed to disagree with the school's decision?

Clearly not, and we're also certainly not allowed to voice such disagreement.

People made an issue of my not standing to say the pledge of allegiance, can't imagine why... what with the separation of church and state and all, and of not making odd pledges that one neither intends to uphold nor keep.

Really, people like to make mountains out of molehills, and they're hookers regardless

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(March 3, 2013 at 12:27 am)Aractus Wrote: [quote='missluckie26' pid='408568' dateline='1362280966']Not to mention: guys' bathrooms are on a whole different playing field cleanliness wise.

Actually that's totally wrong. I know of buildings which have signs inside the ladies that say "wash your hands before leaving" and which do not have those signs inside the men's.

Girls girls... how the fuck did you get shi-, oh... so you're that obese. Gotcha

And don't be ridiculous... never seen a man wash his hands after pissing in my life (hyperbole, but I'll still forever be haunted by the images of guys finishing up at the urinal and walking right out the door...)

Quote:Nonsense. You can disagree with it all you want, but it's still their decision to make.

But they're crazy regardless, right?

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(March 3, 2013 at 12:29 am)missluckie26 Wrote: Ummmm... I was saying you guys' bathrooms are disgusting
Follow up question: How do you know what's in the girl's bathrooms?

Aractus follows women into them, obviously

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(March 3, 2013 at 12:37 am)Shell B Wrote: Do you not find it harmful for a young girl to see a penis? Well, I would rather she did not. I would rather she not see vaginas that do not belong to her, either. However, that would hardly raise the question of genitalia. Children have no reason to be concerned with this. Now, you have yet to assert your views on this. I will go no further until I am sure I am not just wasting my time debating someone who does not disagree, but rather enjoys wasting people's time by making them state every nuance of their argument for no one's benefit. It's rude. So, where do you stand or have nice day? Up to you.

Not remotely. I also don't see it as harmful that she see vaginas. Or that a young lad sees such. Or the dicks of other men. Or tits. Everybody loves tits.

Children have every reason to be as interested in this as anything else they might study... and if they have the very slightest sexual inclination, it might even be expected of them (one man earlier admitted to masturbating by 7, I myself started that at an age I simply don't remember, certainly before that though).

Why would it be harmful for anyone to see a healthy body part? It's not like it's going to psychologically traumatize them from appearance alone (man, it'd have to be uuuuuuugly).

Quote:Missluckie, I have heard tell that women's bathrooms are worse. I imagine it is the bloody mess thing.

I've been in both, and I can honestly say that you cisgendered folk (of each sex) are incredibly foul, and equally guilty of being filthy. The men's gets a lovely amount of piss splattered everywhere, coupled with such an absence of washed hands that by first grade I started opening every bathroom door with a large wad of paper towels (or, sans this... the lower outside portion of my shirts, or coatsleeves). I'm SUCH A FAN of how beautifully they can miss the target, and have to-date absolutely no idea how they can manage that.

The women's likes to have a whole shit ton of paper and grime thrown just about everywhere... bonus points if there's bloodstains on the seats. SUPER BONUS ROUND if there's still-liquidated piss on the seat, alongside a few droplets of blood she couldn't be arsed to wipe down, and MY FAVORITE: diarrhea dribbling along the back or side of the seat. And don't you just love it when they don't flush?

By second grade, I discovered the 'cleanest' way to go to the bathroom ever, and I've been using it since: squat (from a sitting position), ass in the air, and piss. The level of aim attainable from this position (regardless if you've penis or vagina) allows one to quietly let their piss this the ceramic instead of the water, in a downward slope that typically works with the bowled design of toilets... so one doesn't have to feel embarrassed or anything when someone else walks into the same bathroom they're in. Human ingenuity~, that's me.

(March 4, 2013 at 6:08 am)Aractus Wrote: You're simply projecting the perceived "rights" of intersex and transsexual adults onto children who are neither intersex nor transsexual. This has nothing to do with your right to use the woman's restroom.

But this is a little where you start to fall over. How is it not the right of that girl, who, having read about her, is uncomfortable with herself being born male, to use the girl's bathroom?

The limit of one person's right to swing their arm ends at another person's nose. Whose nose is it she's hitting? And you talk about "perceived right" as though it were a ridiculous notion. What's perceived about it, I should like to know? Who's deciding it's not her right?

Ignoring the massive walls of text for the sake brevity and nonemotional discourse, if bathrooms are not split up according to genitals, explain why you can't get a fucking tampon in the men's room. Could it be because men don't have vaginas? I'm afraid that could be the very reason. Bathrooms are designed according to genitals. You might not like it. You might think I am "appealing to authority," though appealing to rational design clearly makes more sense, but that is the way it is. Now, just as a lesson in what these logic terms you bandy about actually mean, an appeal to authority would go something like, "It is illegal for you to use the ladies room. Therefore, you should not use the ladies room." I said no such thing. The appeal to authority goes to Aractus, but I wouldn't expect anyone cares about the definitions of logic terms. *le sigh*

(March 4, 2013 at 11:58 am)Shell B Wrote: Ignoring the massive walls of text for the sake brevity and nonemotional discourse, if bathrooms are not split up according to genitals, explain why you can't get a fucking tampon in the men's room. Could it be because men don't have vaginas? I'm afraid that could be the very reason. Bathrooms are designed according to genitals.

I can't help you with Arachnis, but I do so hate to see you and Violet savaging each other. May I suggest a civilized alternative? Mudwrestling! The best way known way for two gals to clear the air .. no matter which bathroom their genitalia befit them to enter. Some say pillow fights are an acceptable alternative but I say no pain, no gain.

(March 4, 2013 at 11:58 am)Shell B Wrote: Ignoring the massive walls of text for the sake brevity and nonemotional discourse, if bathrooms are not split up according to genitals, explain why you can't get a fucking tampon in the men's room. Could it be because men don't have vaginas? I'm afraid that could be the very reason. Bathrooms are designed according to genitals. You might not like it. You might think I am "appealing to authority," though appealing to rational design clearly makes more sense, but that is the way it is. Now, just as a lesson in what these logic terms you bandy about actually mean, an appeal to authority would go something like, "It is illegal for you to use the ladies room. Therefore, you should not use the ladies room." I said no such thing. The appeal to authority goes to Aractus, but I wouldn't expect anyone cares about the definitions of logic terms. *le sigh*

Is this directed at me?

(March 4, 2013 at 11:58 am)Shell B Wrote: Ignoring the massive walls of text for the sake brevity and nonemotional discourse, if bathrooms are not split up according to genitals, explain why you can't get a fucking tampon in the men's room. Could it be because men don't have vaginas? I'm afraid that could be the very reason. Bathrooms are designed according to genitals. You might not like it. You might think I am "appealing to authority," though appealing to rational design clearly makes more sense, but that is the way it is. Now, just as a lesson in what these logic terms you bandy about actually mean, an appeal to authority would go something like, "It is illegal for you to use the ladies room. Therefore, you should not use the ladies room." I said no such thing. The appeal to authority goes to Aractus, but I wouldn't expect anyone cares about the definitions of logic terms. *le sigh*

You're basically committing the appeal to definition fallacy or something very similar to it. This is at least the second time I've pointed this out to you.

There's nothing about the design of a women's bathroom that would prevent a transgendered kid from using it. They only differ from mens by the absence of urinals which aren't even necessary.

You have yet to offer an argument for excluding this kid that isn't just based what seems to be only your subjective sensibilities. You mentioned the possibility of the penis being seen through the crack of the stall but as I said in my last reply, that seems unlikely. And as I pointed out in my last reply you never offered a reason why seeing a penis is harmful anyway.