Dealing with Death as an Atheist

[CapnAwesome]

I really worry about it a lot every 2 years. So that'll only happen another 15 to 20 times........then I'll die.

[AFTT47]

I guess I'm a minority among atheists in that death bothers me - a lot. I don't remotely buy into the platitude that death gives life meaning. I believe involuntary death sucks - big time.

But didn't you de-convert later in life?  Not hard to see how immortality would be hard to give up if you've been banking on it half your life.

No, I was no more than 12 before becoming a full atheist. I did have a rich imagination regarding aliens visiting Earth in UFOs and building the pyramids but that was gone before I was 20. I did have hope at that age that we could defeat death within my lifetime and that lasted into my early 30s before it became obvious that it was too early for that. 

[Mudhammam]

Perhaps it's not totally relevant but this week I read Cicero's excellent dialogue On Old Age, written in 44 BC, about a year before Cicero was brutally murdered and had his head put on display on the Rostra in the Forum Romanum by Marc Antony, the very location where Cicero had prior given speeches in opposition to Antony. The full text of the dialogue can be read here. Some of my favorite passages include the following:

It remains to consider now the fourth reason — one that seems especially calculated to render my time of life anxious and full of care — the nearness of death; for death, in truth, cannot be far away. O wretched indeed is that old man who has not learned in the course of his long life that death should be held of no account! For clearly death is negligible, if it utterly annihilates the soul, or even desirable, if it conducts the soul to some place where it is to live for ever. Surely no other alternative can be found. What, then, shall I fear, if after death I am destined to be either not unhappy or happy?

...That death is common to every age has been brought home to me by the loss of my dearest son, and to you, Scipio, by the untimely end of your two brothers, when they were giving promise of attaining to the highest honours in the State. But, you may say, the young man hopes that he will live for a long time and this hope the old man cannot have. Such a hope is not wise, for what is more unwise than to mistake uncertainty for certainty, falsehood for truth? They say, also, that the old man has nothing even to hope for. Yet he is in better case than the young man, since what the latter merely hopes for, the former has already attained; the one wishes to live long, the other has lived long.

...to me nothing whatever seems "lengthy" if it has an end; for when that end arrives, then that which was is gone; naught remains but the fruit of good and virtuous deeds. Hours and days, and months and years, go by; the past returns no more, and what is to be we cannot know; but whatever the time given us in which to live, we should therewith be content.

Now the fruit of old age, as I have often said, is the memory of abundant blessings previously acquired. Moreover, whatever befalls in accordance with Nature should be accounted good; and indeed, what is more consonant with Nature than for the old to die? But the same fate befalls the young, though Nature in their case struggles and rebels. Therefore, when the young die I am reminded of a strong flame extinguished by a torrent; but when old men die it is as if a fire had gone out without the use of force and of its own accord, after the fuel had been consumed; and, just as apples when they are green are with difficulty plucked from the tree, but when ripe and mellow fall of themselves, so, with the young, death comes as a result of force, while with the old it is the result of ripeness. To me, indeed, the thought of this "ripeness" for death is so pleasant, that the nearer I approach death the more I feel like one who is in sight of land at last and is about to anchor in his home port after a long voyage.

Now, there may be some sensation in the process of dying, but it is a fleeting one, especially to the old; after death the sensation is either pleasant or there is none at all. But this should be thought on from our youth up, so that we may be indifferent to death, and without this thought no one can be in a tranquil state of mind. For it is certain that we must die, and, for aught we know, this very day. Therefore, since death threatens every hour, how can he who fears it have any steadfastness of soul? 

...as I have noted in my Antiquities, how our legions have often marched with cheerful and unwavering courage into situations whence they thought they would never return. Then shall wise old men fear a thing which is despised by youths, and not only by those who are untaught, but by those also who are mere clowns?

[robvalue]

Wallym: do you have any specific objections to my atheist/theist behaviour thread?

I'm not saying every theist is the same, I'm opening up for discussion trends I have observed. I'm sorry if that's not acceptable to you.

I agree that the war/foxhole example is on the extreme end, but it brings up interesting points. We have a set of beliefs that we use in everyday situations. But it seems that in certain situations those beliefs get challenged, often irrationally. For example, things are a bit dark and I suddenly get the feeling there is a maniac with a knife hiding around every corner. It's not rational, it's paranoid. So it seems to me that certain things can trigger a kind of primal fight/flight paranoid state, where danger is overstated and reactions are altered accordingly.

My new question is, what beliefs survive this transition? For example, no one (as far as I know) ever freaks out and worries that they might float away due to gravity not working. Or that using their muscles to run in one direction could cause them to run in the other direction. So there are clearly some fundamental beliefs that survive into this paranoid state. I suppose it's because these are things that appear to never be wrong, so we don't question them. It's to do with uncertainty, there could be someone with a knife round the corner. It's not a ridiculous proposition. I experience this irrational transition as much as anyone else, so I'm interested in the implications. Do any religious beliefs survive this transition, and what other normal rational beliefs can go out the window for theist and atheist alike?

[Angrboda]

For over 20 years, I was chronically suicidal. I attempted suicide three times. This past year and a half, I've been on anti-psychotic medication, and the suicidal urges faded. I don't really think about death these days. I think about getting through each day. The day to day failures and successes are more present to mind than any future death. So I don't really think about it. I probably worry more about my health deteriorating with age than I do death.

[henryp]

Wallym: do you have any specific objections to my atheist/theist behaviour thread?

I'm not saying every theist is the same, I'm opening up for discussion trends I have observed. I'm sorry if that's not acceptable to you.

Yes.  I would characterize your description of the Theist thinking in that thread as an absurd caricature.  Theists I'd say nearly unanimously don't involve God in their street crossing.  And the vast majority don't go to the doctors "Just in case." 

Maybe someone with a severe mental illness,  or maybe one of those snake handler type people might, I guess.  But Theists look both ways before they cross the street so they don't get hit by a car.  That's it.  Anything else you are trying to project onto the thinking is about you, not reality.

[Cephus]

Wallym: do you have any specific objections to my atheist/theist behaviour thread?

I'm not saying every theist is the same, I'm opening up for discussion trends I have observed. I'm sorry if that's not acceptable to you.

Yes.  I would characterize your description of the Theist thinking in that thread as an absurd caricature.  Theists I'd say nearly unanimously don't involve God in their street crossing.  And the vast majority don't go to the doctors "Just in case." 

Maybe someone with a severe mental illness,  or maybe one of those snake handler type people might, I guess.  But Theists look both ways before they cross the street so they don't get hit by a car.  That's it.  Anything else you are trying to project onto the thinking is about you, not reality.

There are a lot of theists out there who absolutely thank Jesus for everything from finding their car keys to surviving another day on the planet.  These are most ultra-fundamentalist types and, of course, a small minority of the total theist population.  However, the idea that theists are actually thinking about their beliefs, that's another thing entirely.  You cannot come to a belief in any god by wholly rational means, you cannot think your way into it because there is no rational reason to believe that gods exist in the first place.  Therefore, depending on how you define "thinking", I'd argue that, with regard to their beliefs, lots of theists have never thought about them at all.

[henryp]

Yes.  I would characterize your description of the Theist thinking in that thread as an absurd caricature.  Theists I'd say nearly unanimously don't involve God in their street crossing.  And the vast majority don't go to the doctors "Just in case." 

Maybe someone with a severe mental illness,  or maybe one of those snake handler type people might, I guess.  But Theists look both ways before they cross the street so they don't get hit by a car.  That's it.  Anything else you are trying to project onto the thinking is about you, not reality.

There are a lot of theists out there who absolutely thank Jesus for everything from finding their car keys to surviving another day on the planet.  These are most ultra-fundamentalist types and, of course, a small minority of the total theist population.  However, the idea that theists are actually thinking about their beliefs, that's another thing entirely.  You cannot come to a belief in any god by wholly rational means, you cannot think your way into it because there is no rational reason to believe that gods exist in the first place.  Therefore, depending on how you define "thinking", I'd argue that, with regard to their beliefs, lots of theists have never thought about them at all.

There are definitely rational reasons to believe in God.  The key is the belief in a number of false premises.  Premises that we are often inclined to assume to be true due to sociological and biological influences.   But that IS another story.

And thanking Jesus is akin to being thankful you had good luck.  Hell, I still say thank god when I find my keys.   Not because I believe in some deity, but because the meaning is "I'm relieved things worked out."  The only difference is that theists believe that 'chance' has varying degrees of order, while most Atheists just think it is pure chance.  

[Whateverist]

I have a cousin who posts on FB how god was good every time anyone makes it home alive in the car. I'm just waiting to see if she ever exclaims how god was a real rat bastard when someone gets in a car crash instead.

[henryp]

I have a cousin who posts on FB how god was good every time anyone makes it home alive in the car.  I'm just waiting to see if she ever exclaims how god was a real rat bastard when someone gets in a car crash instead.

If only God would provide us with a way to mute other users on Facebook.  I will pray for that tonight, and maybe one will magically appear in the morning.  Then she can continue to use what's, to her, probably a comforting coping mechanism to help her get through life, and you won't have to be annoyed by it.  Wouldn't that be blessed!