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Dear Resident Theists
RE: Dear Resident Theists
Actually lucanus there is absolutely no evidence that the right combination of chemicals is a suitable environment can generate self replicating molecular life. None. Nada. Zero. It's all speculation and atheistic wishful thinking. There has never been nor will there ever be an RNA world or amino acid soup sufficient to produce a single cell.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 22, 2015 at 1:37 pm)Irrational Wrote:
(August 22, 2015 at 10:30 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Irrational, your name suits you well. Only contingent beings can be fine-tuned. God is not a contingent being, therefore your objection does not apply.

And the multiverse is not a contingent entity, take that!

We all struggle with irrationality from time to time, you included.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and confirm the suspicion. You have no idea what you are saying and have only proved yourself hopelessly ignorant in addition to being irrational.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 23, 2015 at 12:12 am)ChadWooters Wrote: [...]There has never been nor will there ever be an RNA world or amino acid soup sufficient to produce a single cell.

There has never been nor will there ever be a supernatural being, who created the entire universe in order to have its invisible d*ck sucked by self-centred apes, like yourself. It's just your wishful thinking. Get over it...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 23, 2015 at 12:12 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Actually lucanus there is absolutely no evidence that the right combination of chemicals is a suitable environment can generate self replicating molecular life. None. Nada. Zero. It's all speculation and atheistic wishful thinking. There has never been nor will there ever be an RNA world or amino acid soup sufficient to produce a single cell.




Still it certainly puts my mind to rest knowing you personally can vouch for the insufficiency of all prior conditions of the earth even in the presence of the right inorganic materials to ever result in biogenesis.  What was I thinking?  Obviously therefore God - assuming He had anymore luck self assembling than life itself.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 23, 2015 at 12:12 am)ChadWooters Wrote: Actually lucanus there is absolutely no evidence that the right combination of chemicals is a suitable environment can generate self replicating molecular life. None. Nada. Zero. It's all speculation and atheistic wishful thinking. There has never been nor will there ever be an RNA world or amino acid soup sufficient to produce a single cell.

So how did they come about? A metaphysical being waving his metaphysical dick saying "Wingardium Leviosa"? You're ridiculous.

Your line of thinking is the same as an ancient Greek witnessing a lightning strike. "Tide goes in, tide goes out, you can't explain that" therefore God.

ETA: don't shit your pants
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.

Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.

Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.

Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.

Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
Reply
RE: Dear Resident Theists
Never will be huh? Overreaching somewhat. Not even god is allowed that level of future knowledge when his supposed omnipotence clashes with free will.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
Correct me if I'm wrong....

First cause:

We are part of the self-conscious universe. Our brains are the most complex things we know in the universe. We are parts of the universe that probe the universe and are fascinated by it, because being intelligent, we can also sense intelligence when it is there.  We are able to create things in the small scheme, and we look for a creator on the grand scheme of things. The Cal Tech supercomputer can now make measurements 10 to the 23rd power. It has been estimated by astronomers that the complexity of the universe in simply balancing gravity against the electric force needs calculations a hundred trillion times more precise. And this is just one aspect of the universe that without which life could never happen.

The Universe had a beginning. It is no longer believed to be infinite. This was shown by the Big Bang theory. Time itself had a beginning (see the "beginning of time"" by Stephen Hawkins). Space, time and matter had a beginning!

This is important to your question because it was a commonly held idea that life initially came about on earth by chance form atoms assembling to form molecules and proteins, cells, to reproducing life by random chance over an infinite amount of time, over an infinite amount of rolls of dice on a seemingly infinite number of earth-like planets. We now know that time is not infinite. And neither is matter. There are very strict requirements for the existence of life in the expanding universe, and our Earth in our 21st century is extremely lucky in that regard. Yes, we are star dust. Flourine in our bodies can only form as dust from a dying star is pulled off by the gravity of a nearby dying star, and a third planet is around to cross the path of this star dust. There are an estimated 41 of fine tuned conditions like these that are needed for life to exist on a planet. A chance in a billion trillions.

This is crucial because, like seeing an exploding grenade and asking, "who pulled the pin?", we are asking, Who or what caused this????

And the answer is, if there is a cause for the Big Bang and the beginning of time, space and matter, and life itself, it is GROSSLY INTELLIGENT.  

Hence...
V
V
V
Deistic deity.
Since space, matter and time had a beginning, the Cause of it must have existed OUTSIDE of space, matter and time.
So the question, "if God created the universe who created God?" does not apply. That's because something beyond space and time has no need to begin to exist, but is rather in eternal existence.

Hence... we come to theology
V
V
V
Theistic god:
If the material universe has a beginning and is finite and it has a cause, the cause must be immaterial. Hence, theologians have been saying since thousands of years that God is immaterial (God is spirit). And if this Origin of space and time is outside of space and time, it can also be omnipresent.

And a God of Love:
The total mass of the universe acts as a catalyst for nuclear fusion. The more massive the cosmos, the more efficient nuclear fusion. If the Universe is too massive, the basic elements Oxygen, Nitrogen and Carbon could not form. If the Universe was too small, we would be stuck with only Hydrogen. But the Universe is exploding from a miniscule beginnings of an immensely immense mass. The time for life to form is exactly now. Its taken 14 billion years. Now, the exact position and mass of a billion stars allows life to form on this miniscule planet. OUR life. Hence... the Creator is loving since the price He paid for life to form on earth can be seen in the brilliance of a billion stars in the night sky. Just as Abraham gazed at the night sky and conversed with God, leading him out for the Promised Land.

Hence...
V
V
V
Abrahamic god:
The Abrahamic God out of all the religious texts is the only one that is said to be outside of space and time. The "Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end." We are mostly material beings so we can't even define Him completely. It is He who defines Himself, telling Moses, "I AM WHO I AM".

What's more, Jesus Christ, also said of Himself:
"Truly, truly I say to you, Before Abraham was, I AM" (i.e. he is above the limits of time. Those who heard him recognized the blatent message and vowed to kill him for blasphemy. And he walked on water. The message? He is beyond matter.)

Hence...
V
V
Your particular abrahamic god: Jesus Christ - The God of Love. The one who became one of us, in the greatest event in human history.

your particular denomination's god
V
V
V
I am Catholic. That means I rely on nature, science, divine revelation and tradition- the experience of scholars and leaders since 2000 years. Combine everything to make a final conclusion. I grew up as a Catholic but it took 33 years to be able to express this huge thing.

And I pray. Prayer is just mindfulness of the presence of the Creator through introspection. Introspection is looking inward, though our inner eyes to our deepest desires and longings. And our deepest core that longs for our Creator.

"Deep is calling on Deep in the churning of the waters. Your waves have swept over me." Psalm 42.

V
V
V
your personal version of this god: For that I am figuring out who I am, and that will take a lifetime.




Really, really pretty please? ._.

(I realize that the last two may be the same thing depending on the circumstances, so feel free to merge them if you like)
[/quote]
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 23, 2015 at 12:18 am)ChadWooters Wrote:
(August 22, 2015 at 1:37 pm)Irrational Wrote: And the multiverse is not a contingent entity, take that!

We all struggle with irrationality from time to time, you included.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and confirm the suspicion. You have no idea what you are saying and have only proved yourself hopelessly ignorant in addition to being irrational.

lol, special pleading does not make you smart. You're not fooling anyone here but yourself.
Reply
RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong....

First cause:

We are part of the self-conscious universe. Our brains are the most complex things we know in the universe. We are parts of the universe that probe the universe and are fascinated by it, because being intelligent, we can also sense intelligence when it is there.  We are able to create things in the small scheme, and we look for a creator on the grand scheme of things. The Cal Tech supercomputer can now make measurements 10 to the 23rd power. It has been estimated by astronomers that the complexity of the universe in simply balancing gravity against the electric force needs calculations a hundred trillion times more precise. And this is just one aspect of the universe that without which life could never happen.

The Universe had a beginning. It is no longer believed to be infinite. This was shown by the Big Bang theory. Time itself had a beginning (see the "beginning of time"" by Stephen Hawkins). Space, time and matter had a beginning!

This is important to your question because it was a commonly held idea that life initially came about on earth by chance form atoms assembling to form molecules and proteins, cells, to reproducing life by random chance over an infinite amount of time, over an infinite amount of rolls of dice on a seemingly infinite number of earth-like planets. We now know that time is not infinite. And neither is matter. There are very strict requirements for the existence of life in the expanding universe, and our Earth in our 21st century is extremely lucky in that regard. Yes, we are star dust. Flourine in our bodies can only form as dust from a dying star is pulled off by the gravity of a nearby dying star, and a third planet is around to cross the path of this star dust. There are an estimated 41 of fine tuned conditions like these that are needed for life to exist on a planet. A chance in a billion trillions.

This is crucial because, like seeing an exploding grenade and asking, "who pulled the pin?", we are asking, Who or what caused this????

And the answer is, if there is a cause for the Big Bang and the beginning of time, space and matter, and life itself, it is GROSSLY INTELLIGENT.  

Stop right there! No one ever said that life formed on Earth by chance and "an infinite time". Life formed quite early in the history of our planet, and we have fossil evidence for that. Matter and time might not be infinite, but compared to the size of a cell, they are HUGE.

Plus, life formed because the conditions were right. Life formed because of the laws of physics and in the ways that they allowed for its existence. I really find it silly to say that the laws of physics, that make life impossible in 99.99999999999999999% of the universe, were fine tuned for it. Especially if the cause was "GROSSLY INTELLIGENT". Grossly bad at engineering, if this is what it calls "fine tuning".

(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: Hence...
V
V
V
Deistic deity.
Since space, matter and time had a beginning, the Cause of it must have existed OUTSIDE of space, matter and time.
So the question, "if God created the universe who created God?" does not apply. That's because something beyond space and time has no need to begin to exist, but is rather in eternal existence.

[citation needed]

(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: Hence... we come to theology
V
V
V
Theistic god:
If the material universe has a beginning and is finite and it has a cause, the cause must be immaterial. Hence, theologians have been saying since thousands of years that God is immaterial (God is spirit). And if this Origin of space and time is outside of space and time, it can also be omnipresent.

Evidence pls

(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: And a God of Love:
The total mass of the universe acts as a catalyst for nuclear fusion. The more massive the cosmos, the more efficient nuclear fusion. If the Universe is too massive, the basic elements Oxygen, Nitrogen and Carbon could not form. If the Universe was too small, we would be stuck with only Hydrogen. But the Universe is exploding from a miniscule beginnings of an immensely immense mass. The time for life to form is exactly now. Its taken 14 billion years. Now, the exact position and mass of a billion stars allows life to form on this miniscule planet. OUR life. Hence... the Creator is loving since the price He paid for life to form on earth can be seen in the brilliance of a billion stars in the night sky. Just as Abraham gazed at the night sky and conversed with God, leading him out for the Promised Land.

If the Creator was omnipotent, the universe could simply work differently, and could support life in a much higher percentage of it. You are deluded.


ETA: I take the Creator as omnipotent because, having been a Catholic, I remember what the Creed said:

Quote:I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.

Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.

Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.

Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.

Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
Reply
RE: Dear Resident Theists
(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong....

Okey dokey .. and welcome.

(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: First cause:

It really is prior necessary conditions all the way down.  There is no bottom turtle.

(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: We are part of the self-conscious universe. Our brains are the most complex things we know in the universe. We are parts of the universe that probe the universe and are fascinated by it, because being intelligent, we can also sense intelligence when it is there.

And that right there [my bolded] is why we sense God.  Just as the brain creates the world for us on a preconscious level, so it also creates a primal Thou.  Not because the primal Thou is literally out there, but because the brain is nimble about building up interactive profiles of "others' ranging from neighbors and family to enemies and even the dead.  

When the conscious mind reaches out to the primal Thou, there it is.  It was never the conscious mind that created the sense of how proud your dead granny would be.  The 'thou's the brain constructs are no more our conscious creations than what we see is.  Yet our brains produce both and much more.  Unbidden.

That doesn't mean there is actually an intelligence out there.  Our preconscious minds are wondrous things but they are no more infallible than we are.  The intelligence we consciously sought was unconsciously produced and then consciously found.  If that sounds nuts, imagine how it sounds to imagine a cosmic tinkerer making something from nothing.

But so what if the unconscious mind is producing this apprehension of intelligence and the conscious mind is interpreting that as the response of the primal-Thou/God?  It doesn't mean that the primal Thou produced by these deeper, archaic levels of the mind don't have anything useful to share.  If you like your relationship with God, keep it.  I just prefer to conceptualize the primal Thou as coming from the totality of my self, that which gives rise both to my conscious mind and the vast house of many  rooms which is unconscious from the point of view of the conscious mind. 


(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: We are able to create things in the small scheme, and we look for a creator on the grand scheme of things. The Cal Tech supercomputer can now make measurements 10 to the 23rd power. It has been estimated by astronomers that the complexity of the universe in simply balancing gravity against the electric force needs calculations a hundred trillion times more precise. And this is just one aspect of the universe that without which life could never happen.

This reminds me of the the just-so story which explains the shape of the rain puddle.  Truly in heaven there is just such a hole and so on earth the puddle was formed in just that shape.   Dodgy

(August 23, 2015 at 6:09 am)Ronkonkoma Wrote: The Universe had a beginning. It is no longer believed to be infinite. This was shown by the Big Bang theory.

The correct conclusion for the fact that we're unable to locate the bottom turtle is to say that any 'true' beginning is indefinite.  All we'll ever find as we search beneath each turtle is another turtle.  No it is not correct to say the universe had a beginning.
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