If only the argument from ignorance and faulty analogies could be purged forever, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.

(July 30, 2015 at 1:03 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Very true Rob.  Ask someone to explain what consciousness IS.  We can explain its effects and perceptions, relation to brain, etc.  But what IS it?  Same with energy.  What is it?  Just because we don't know what it is doesn't means it's not real nor should we right off a person as an intellectual because they cannot explain it.  The simple answer, "We don't know".

Depends one who you ask. Some people are big fans of using vague words and referencing quantum physics for some reason ._.

Energy, conceptually, is the conserved quantity associated with time translation invariance via Noethers theorem, or a timelike Killing vector in curved space, providing a covariantly conserved quantity. If one wants an absolutely conserved quantity, one has to assign an energy density to curved space as well, e.g. via the Landau-Lifshitz pseudotensor. It is the expectation value of the Hamiltonian operator. So yes, we know a lot about what energy is... And it's not an ineffable magical life force.

(July 30, 2015 at 10:40 am)lkingpinl Wrote:

(July 30, 2015 at 10:28 am)Little Rik Wrote: When you drive a car you feel (we all feel) that there is no separation between you and the car.
You control the way the car goes so in a way the feeling of separation doesn't exist.
You feel that you are the car.
The same happen with your body.
You came to think that you are the body but the body is not you as the car is not you.
Most atheist came to the same conclusion but is a false conclusion.
It is only when you develop your consciousness that you can understand who is who. 

Rik would you identify as a Pantheist?

To me everything is God but we only see  (in things and creatures) that particular side of God that our consciousness allow us to see.
The more our consciousness get bigger the more we can see the real God.

[whisper screaming]
THAT'S A YES WITH A SIDE OF DRUGS
[/whisper screaming]

(July 30, 2015 at 11:02 am)Alex K Wrote:

(July 30, 2015 at 11:00 am)Little Rik Wrote: When one of the 3 horses doesn't do his job for some reason the other 2 horses are unable to proceed straight
even if they are in perfect condition.
Just imagine having a cart in which 2 horses try to pull the cart and the other horse for some reason is not moving.
It is next to impossible.
In this case there is chaos and you can not really understand what is going on.
Medical science can study and study and study but until it will take in consideration all 3 aspect of our self there is no way it will be able to understand how the system works.
Physical science as his name say is purely physical in nature and therefore study only the physical aspect of our self.   
When physical science will finally open up to our spiritual aspect then the chances that will understand how the whole system works will be possible.

That's just wishful thinking on your part. You still have to demonstrate that there are different aspects which are truly separate from the material one. The most parsimonious hypothesis is that they don't exist.

No problems with that.
You can have the demonstration within.
As soon as you engage in spirituality you will notice a change in your life for the better.
If the spirit within wouldn't exist then you wouldn't be able to perceive any change.
As far as the demonstration that you mean i am sure that you are talking about a physical demonstration.
Let us see if this demonstration is possible.
Can you transfer the feeling of love that you feel when you are in love with your loved one?
Can you make me feel that feeling?
How can you Alex?
It is impossible.
And if it is impossible to transfer physical-mental love just imagine how can be even more difficult to transfer
spiritual love which is so much more powerful than the physical one. 

(July 31, 2015 at 8:32 am)Neimenovic Wrote: [whisper screaming]
THAT'S A YES WITH A SIDE OF DRUGS
[/whisper screaming]

(July 31, 2015 at 8:43 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(July 30, 2015 at 11:02 am)Alex K Wrote: That's just wishful thinking on your part. You still have to demonstrate that there are different aspects which are truly separate from the material one. The most parsimonious hypothesis is that they don't exist.

No problems with that.
You can have the demonstration within.
As soon as you engage in spirituality you will notice a change in your life for the better.
If the spirit within wouldn't exist then you wouldn't be able to perceive any change.
As far as the demonstration that you mean i am sure that you are talking about a physical demonstration.
Let us see if this demonstration is possible.
Can you transfer the feeling of love that you feel when you are in love with your loved one?
Can you make me feel that feeling?
How can you Alex?
It is impossible.
And if it is impossible to transfer physical-mental love just imagine how can be even more difficult to transfer
spiritual love which is so much more powerful than the physical one. 

No I can't, and that's precisely why I don't think that love is a fundamental principle or property of nature. That being said, once we understand the human brain better, the feat you inquire about may well become possible - but this will only underline the fact that love, like consciousness, is entirely the result of a physical process, and not an independent substance.

(July 30, 2015 at 1:03 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(July 30, 2015 at 12:51 pm)robvalue Wrote: If you change the definition of consciousness to "a meaningless property that everything has" then we're sorted. Rocks have consciousness, and we can all agree.

Consciousness has to be one of the most fascinating and elusive concepts. So close to home, yet so far from understood. And so easy to talk shit about and create wild interpretations based on nothing.

Very true Rob.  Ask someone to explain what consciousness IS.  We can explain its effects and perceptions, relation to brain, etc.  But what IS it?  Same with energy.  What is it?  Just because we don't know what it is doesn't means it's not real nor should we right off a person as an intellectual because they cannot explain it.  The simple answer, "We don't know".

It is not true that WE do not know.
As you say WE you already admit that you are the consciousness.
Who is We or I then?
That is not the brain. 
The brain is made of matter so it can't be it.
Who then other than YOU.
But the problem is not so simple especially when someone consciousness is not that strong.
The muscles can be very very weak and flaccid or can be very very strong or anywhere in the middle
according to our exercised or not exercises.
The consciousness works on similar lines.
If we make it stronger with our efforts then we will be able to understand who is who.
On the contrary if we do nothing then we may well confuse the consciousness with the brain or with nothing
and from nothing you get nothing real. 

(July 31, 2015 at 8:27 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(July 30, 2015 at 10:40 am)lkingpinl Wrote: Rik would you identify as a Pantheist?

To me everything is God but we only see  (in things and creatures) that particular side of God that our consciousness allow us to see.
The more our consciousness get bigger the more we can see the real God.

Fair enough Rik.  Can you answer this question:

Science has essentially proven (there are some detractors) that the universe had a beginning and is not infinite.  If God is all things (including the universe), how did it come into existence?