And I think that attitude reeks of a sort of socialist elitism. Just because we think elements of capitalism (or indeed even capitalism as a whole) are good, we can't possibly be "left-wing". It's the same attitude of the Christians who claim that if you ever left Christianity, you were never "Christian" to begin with, and it is a classic fallacy.

Being left-wing doesn't limit you to one specific type of economic system. I notice that on the political compass, you are 3 points from a "true" Left position, so by your own logic you cannot be a "true" lefty either! *shock horror*. Some elements of the right were supported in your answers, just as they were in mine.

(February 11, 2009 at 5:48 pm)Tiberius Wrote: And I think that attitude reeks of a sort of socialist elitism. Just because we think elements of capitalism (or indeed even capitalism as a whole) are good, we can't possibly be "left-wing". It's the same attitude of the Christians who claim that if you ever left Christianity, you were never "Christian" to begin with, and it is a classic fallacy.

Being left-wing doesn't limit you to one specific type of economic system. I notice that on the political compass, you are 3 points from a "true" Left position, so by your own logic you cannot be a "true" lefty either! *shock horror*. Some elements of the right were supported in your answers, just as they were in mine.

I'm not being elitist, I think socialism is a better system than capitalism. I say categorically, socialism is better. In my opinion, it is necessary to subscribe to that view to adopt a title of being left-wing.
I have known people who call themselves " left " because it's trendy...not so much these days I grant you. I liken it to racists in denial.
As regards the political compass, I wouldn't put too much faith in that if I were you. I don't know the authors, but I doubt they are socialists.
You didn't get anybody coming out right-wing did you? The authors are likely pseudo-left.

Quote:In my opinion, it is necessary to subscribe to that view to adopt a title of being left-wing.

And that is the Elitist attitude that comes across. Despite what your opinion is, being "left-wing" is not equal to being a socialist. Also, if you look at the political compass marks for the recent presidential election, you will see them in the upper right quadrant. One of my housemates is in the in the centre of the right side of the graph, and a friend is in the right side but at the bottom (lower-right quandrant).

I reckon it is just members of this forum (and probably atheists in general) who tend to be in the lower left.

(February 11, 2009 at 7:44 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

Quote:In my opinion, it is necessary to subscribe to that view to adopt a title of being left-wing.

And that is the Elitist attitude that comes across. Despite what your opinion is, being "left-wing" is not equal to being a socialist. Also, if you look at the political compass marks for the recent presidential election, you will see them in the upper right quadrant. One of my housemates is in the in the centre of the right side of the graph, and a friend is in the right side but at the bottom (lower-right quandrant).

I reckon it is just members of this forum (and probably atheists in general) who tend to be in the lower left.

Please give me your idea of what being left-wing is then.

(February 11, 2009 at 7:44 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I reckon it is just members of this forum (and probably atheists in general) who tend to be in the lower left.

I think I understand what you meant to say, but what you actually said implied that everyone on the planet who isn't signed up to this forum is in the other three quarters of the graph.

(February 11, 2009 at 7:47 pm)bozo Wrote:

(February 11, 2009 at 7:44 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

Quote:In my opinion, it is necessary to subscribe to that view to adopt a title of being left-wing.

And that is the Elitist attitude that comes across. Despite what your opinion is, being "left-wing" is not equal to being a socialist. Also, if you look at the political compass marks for the recent presidential election, you will see them in the upper right quadrant. One of my housemates is in the in the centre of the right side of the graph, and a friend is in the right side but at the bottom (lower-right quandrant).

I reckon it is just members of this forum (and probably atheists in general) who tend to be in the lower left.

Please give me your idea of what being left-wing is then.

To put it simply, having liberal policies that explore new ideas in every area as opposed to the right who rely on tradition and conventional ideas and values.

I want governments to explore new ideas, make freedom of speech a constitutional right, stop the protection of religion, etc. But I also think that capitalism is the best system we have at the moment, and I honestly haven't seen any other system that works better.

(February 11, 2009 at 8:17 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(February 11, 2009 at 7:47 pm)bozo Wrote:

(February 11, 2009 at 7:44 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

Quote:In my opinion, it is necessary to subscribe to that view to adopt a title of being left-wing.

And that is the Elitist attitude that comes across. Despite what your opinion is, being "left-wing" is not equal to being a socialist. Also, if you look at the political compass marks for the recent presidential election, you will see them in the upper right quadrant. One of my housemates is in the in the centre of the right side of the graph, and a friend is in the right side but at the bottom (lower-right quandrant).

I reckon it is just members of this forum (and probably atheists in general) who tend to be in the lower left.

Please give me your idea of what being left-wing is then.

To put it simply, having liberal policies that explore new ideas in every area as opposed to the right who rely on tradition and conventional ideas and values.

I want governments to explore new ideas, make freedom of speech a constitutional right, stop the protection of religion, etc. But I also think that capitalism is the best system we have at the moment, and I honestly haven't seen any other system that works better.

Adrian, the fact that you consider capitalism " works " and you can't imagine a better alternative, together with the rather modest demands you expect it to deliver, only confirms my view that such a position really isn't left-wing as I view politics.
Such a position could easily be held by liberals and " wet " tories.
Sorry!

I didn't say I couldn't imagine a better alternative, I said I had honestly never seen one that worked better. Your attitude is really quite astounding. How are you going to ever persuade me by continually denying that I share some of your political opinions? Here's a challenge for you bozo, instead of telling people why they aren't as left as you, why don't you explain to me how your economic system works, and why we should use it instead of capitalism.

Best case scenario, I agree and become a socialist. Worst case? We remain in the state we are now, arguing over what constitutes "left-wing".

(February 12, 2009 at 8:34 pm)Tiberius Wrote: I didn't say I couldn't imagine a better alternative, I said I had honestly never seen one that worked better. Your attitude is really quite astounding. How are you going to ever persuade me by continually denying that I share some of your political opinions? Here's a challenge for you bozo, instead of telling people why they aren't as left as you, why don't you explain to me how your economic system works, and why we should use it instead of capitalism.

Best case scenario, I agree and become a socialist. Worst case? We remain in the state we are now, arguing over what constitutes "left-wing".

Hold on a minute, Adrian, this post is about how we consider ourselves on the political scale. You claim to be left-wing, all I am saying is that in my estimation, you are not. You certainly aren't " as left " as me, you said as much after the progress thingy graph. You have clearly stated that you think capitalism is ok and you put forward a few tweaks that you think might make it work a bit better. I place you on the centre, not left.
I did quote you previously an example of " actually existing socialism " that being Cuba, where a revolution has changed the lives of its working-class very much for the better.
I'm not out to convert you...you know what socialism is and I don't think it appeals to you. If I'm wrong, tell me.

I'm open to all new ideas, and I said a while back (not sure if it is in this thread) that I'm quite new to the political game. I'm not heavily into any particular political party, so please do try to convert me, especially since I'm encouraging it!

I am well aware that you gave the example of Cuba, but as far as I can remember, you did not rebut a point made by someone about the number of lower-class Cubans who build rafts to travel to America. If Cuba has revolutionised the working class as you claim it has, why are there so many reports of Cubans trying to enter the US?