(October 26, 2010 at 12:23 pm)Ace Wrote: Realistic: Jesus existed but had no magical powers of any kind. Was an ordinary man like any other and spouting bollocks, pulling off magic tricks and started to become a bit of a nuisance and a threat. So the Romans decided to remove this little problem through execution by crucifixion like it has with many thousands of others. This made jesus into a martyr (which wasn't the intention of the Romans) and now not only has this given birth to a new religion with it's own martyr and symbol. That little problem became a rather large one. Jesus did not sacrifice himself, he was executed for being a pest.

I believe that Jesus and all the other messengers of God have a good character, and they are truthful, because this is how they are portrayed in the religious books and in the narrations of their Companions. That's why I don't believe that Jesus performed any magic tricks to deceive people (as if he was doing miracles).

Even though I'm a little bit skeptical about some of the miracle stories of the prophets, because of possible fabrications during the passage of time, I still believe that they would be able to do such things by the will and permission of God. I was not there at the time and that's why I can't confidently say what is true and not true about the life of Jesus.

Also, if there are so many people who believe in the same events and connect those events to the same person, and all the separate written accounts match with each other, and they come from trustworthy people, then, I think there's a pretty good chance that what I'm reading are true events. At the same time, I don't deny that a lot of the stories could be false or misleading also. There could be different versions of a particular event as reported by different people and that would reduce the accuracy of such a thing happening.

The sacrifice of Jesus is one of those things which contradicts the Quran (in the following verse) which says:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God;" - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [Surah 4:156-159]

Why is there such a contradiction (between the Bible and Quran)? I don't know. But you can decide that for yourself.

"Belief" is an excuse for not thinking.

Come back when you have some evidence of your bullshit and we'll evaluate it.

Unlike you, I don't believe in whatever I read. It must have credibility. People from thousands of years ago stuffing a load of extraordinary claims into a book does not impress me (especially when you take into consideration that people back then knew fuck'al about the universe, let alone a tiny part of the world). Lots of extraordinary claims with no extraordinary evidence will only go one way. - Dismissal.
So yeah, evidence please.

(October 28, 2010 at 2:45 am)Rayaan Wrote: Why is there such a contradiction (between the Bible and Quran)? I don't know. But you can decide that for yourself.

Because it is hard for extravagant and baseless claims made 600 years apart to be consistent.

(October 28, 2010 at 2:45 am)Rayaan Wrote: I believe that Jesus and all the other messengers of God have a good character, and they are truthful, because this is how they are portrayed in the religious books and in the narrations of their Companions. That's why I don't believe that Jesus performed any magic tricks to deceive people (as if he was doing miracles).

Yet you believe they are prophets only because the holy books say so, but the holy books are authored by people who already believed they were prophets. It's circular reasoning Rayaan, and you're too smart to be another metaphorical dog chasing it's tail.

Quote:Even though I'm a little bit skeptical about some of the miracle stories of the prophets, because of possible fabrications during the passage of time, I still believe that they would be able to do such things by the will and permission of God. I was not there at the time and that's why I can't confidently say what is true and not true about the life of Jesus.

Skeptical, you mean like Mo riding around on a flying unicorn? Yeah, it's safe to say that's complete and utter bullshit.

Tell me, you admit you are hesitant to make many claims about specifics because you weren't there, which obviously means you aren't an inherentist, so if that is the case and these books cannot by default be assumed to be accurate, for what reasons do you feel it is rational to accept any of it?

Quote:Also, if there are so many people who believe in the same events and connect those events to the same person, and all the separate written accounts match with each other, and they come from trustworthy people, then, I think there's a pretty good chance that what I'm reading are true events.

We have people who believe the same made-up shit as being true, it's no difference to the 10,000,000 Scientologists or the 1,000,000 Raelians or the 1,000,000,000 Hindu's who all believe things that are in direct contradiction to your own claims. It's all an argument from popularity, which is a fallacy.

You've said before that you value logic, so why make argument from population fallacies in an attempt to justify your belief in these tales?

Quote: At the same time, I don't deny that a lot of the stories could be false or misleading also. There could be different versions of a particular event as reported by different people and that would reduce the accuracy of such a thing happening.

How do you determine which ones are true? If you're just assuming some are false without method then you're simply in madness.

Quote:The sacrifice of Jesus is one of those things which contradicts the Quran (in the following verse) which says:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God;" - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. [Surah 4:156-159]

And why should we give a shit what the Qur'an says?

Jesus' Sacrifice wasn't really a sacrifice because it didn't really happen.........

(October 25, 2010 at 3:12 pm)Skipper Wrote: Ignoring the fact it was technically god sacrificing himself to himself for the sin he himself created I'd like to know peoples opinions. If Jesus was guaranteed to live in Heaven for eternity and be the focus of billions of peoples worship and praise how is his dying on the cross a sacrifice at all? How is it relevant to the faith and how is it seen a selfless act? and as a side note how is him dying the cure for all previous and future sin?

I'd go through whatever pain you could think of if I was to then go on to live forever in the sky world with sky daddy and the praise and love of half the earth.

Thoughts?

He (Jesus) sacrificed his time, comfort, and some amount of his pride. His life carried on in his afterdeath... and he returned somewhat selfishly, wishing to be seen as a miracle of some sort. He was probably just vain.

Did he sacrifice his wealth when he preached to the poor about the crime of wealth? He did not. He was brought great treasures sometime after his birth, and likely lured fishermen away from their job (much to their father's displeasure, I expect) with a combination of his magic tricks and wealth. He even used his godly powers to ease life for him (ie: the feeding of 5,000(?), raising people from the dead to prove his power).

I think he was very selfish.... always Me, Me, Me, and Me. Obey *MY* laws, observe *MY* holidays, lead *MY* people. And then when he came down to earth it was still Me, Me, Me, and Me. Believing in *ME* is the only way into heaven. Hell, any heaven such a disgustingly selfish person can imagine is probably more akin to my idea of a hell.

Sacrifice? I've seen much greater sacrifices than the one displayed Jesus.

I agree with your sentiment, although everyone is selfish.

(October 29, 2010 at 4:59 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Jesus' Sacrifice wasn't really a sacrifice because it didn't really happen.........

And even if it did really happen, it's hardly a sacrifice. Nailed to a cross, dies, three days later....he's now immortal. Don't know about you, but that's like trading a life of rags to a life of riches. Where's the sacrifice?
Theists never answer that one properly. What did jesus sacrifice?

Ace! Ace! Ace!
I know the answer!!!
He went through a horible experience! although he knew that he will be like.. well.. like a god after that but thats not important. and would I be willing to go through such experience just to become a.. well god..
Of course not! who would want to become a god anyway?!