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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 23, 2015 at 7:57 pm
(This post was last modified: August 23, 2015 at 8:01 pm by Whateverist.)
(August 23, 2015 at 1:31 pm)Ronkonkoma Wrote: (August 23, 2015 at 7:14 am)Lucanus Wrote: You are deluded.
ETA: I take the Creator as omnipotent because, having been a Catholic, I remember what the Creed said:
The fact that you called me deluded ends all discussion.
Hey, I never called you deluded. Did my response not interest you at all? (#180 of this thread.)
But I never expect a response. That is entirely up to you as it is each of us.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 23, 2015 at 10:12 pm
(August 23, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Lucanus Wrote: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyZDZCGQJf8
I couldn't stop myself.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 1:46 am
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2015 at 2:24 am by Ronkonkoma.)
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 5:52 am
Who said the Big Bang needed a cause?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 6:34 am
Oh boy...
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 2:11 pm
(August 24, 2015 at 5:52 am)Stimbo Wrote: Who said the Big Bang needed a cause?
Most things happen because of a cause. Science is always looking for a cause. The more answers we get, the more questions come up. To say the big bang had no cause is like giving up on science.
And that might be an option because the big bang is the beginning of space and time, and our scientific method fails when we go beyond space and time. Beyond that, we go into philosophy.
Or we can propose other sci-fi versions of reality like multiple universes. Who knows?
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 3:22 pm
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2015 at 3:24 pm by Homeless Nutter.)
(August 24, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Ronkonkoma Wrote: (August 24, 2015 at 5:52 am)Stimbo Wrote: Who said the Big Bang needed a cause?
Most things happen because of a cause.[...]
Well - if " most things" happen "because of a cause", that means not all things have a cause. Why can't Big Bang be one of those few things, that - as you claim - don't have a cause?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 3:53 pm
(August 24, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Ronkonkoma Wrote: (August 24, 2015 at 5:52 am)Stimbo Wrote: Who said the Big Bang needed a cause?
Most things happen because of a cause. Science is always looking for a cause. The more answers we get, the more questions come up. To say the big bang had no cause is like giving up on science.
And that might be an option because the big bang is the beginning of space and time, and our scientific method fails when we go beyond space and time. Beyond that, we go into philosophy.
Or we can propose other sci-fi versions of reality like multiple universes. Who knows? But then if you say god did it then you have to account for a cause to God. If you say god had no cause then why not use occams razor and slice out God entirely and say the universe had no cause?
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 6:49 pm
(August 24, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Ronkonkoma Wrote: (August 24, 2015 at 5:52 am)Stimbo Wrote: Who said the Big Bang needed a cause?
Most things happen because of a cause. Science is always looking for a cause. The more answers we get, the more questions come up. To say the big bang had no cause is like giving up on science.
And that might be an option because the big bang is the beginning of space and time, and our scientific method fails when we go beyond space and time. Beyond that, we go into philosophy.
I agree that what takes place beyond the level of the universe of which we are a part certainly seems beyond the reach of science at this point, and quite likely for all time. Perhaps someone will propose an indicator which would be, for theoretical reasons, an indicator of a multiverse. I don't know, but I doubt there will ever be an entirely satisfying conclusion which will convince all parties.
So we can call the alternatives philosophy but really, aren't we just spitballing possibilities? What I think you really must give up saying is that the universe, space and time had a beginning before which there was absolutely nothing. There is no more reason for thinking that than for thinking there is a multiverse or for thinking something supernatural.
Nothing is the one thing we can all rule out. There was never nothing. As far back as we can investigate, there are always pre-existing conditions which meld with what follows. (That was what I wished to imply by the 'turtles all the way down' analogy.) Even if you choose to believe time, space and everything had a beginning, you still believe there was a God capable of bringing all that into being. So you really do not believe in a true nothingness.
(August 24, 2015 at 2:11 pm)Ronkonkoma Wrote: Or we can propose other sci-fi versions of reality like multiple universes. Who knows?
Indeed, who? Not me. Not you. But we are all free to speculate. For me it is impossible to imagine that there is not a level of description -perhaps with its own timeline- wherein big bangs are a dime a dozen and their expansion and contraction are like a big pile of frothy bubbles. That anything happens in isolation is beyond the power of my imagination.
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RE: Dear Resident Theists
August 24, 2015 at 8:34 pm
(This post was last modified: August 24, 2015 at 9:05 pm by Whateverist.)
(August 22, 2015 at 10:48 am)ChadWooters Wrote: (August 21, 2015 at 5:53 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Got to stop you there. How could you possibly know what there has got to be? That's a slightly deceptive edit, Whateverist. I did not use the multiverse as the premise of a proof for God. The speculative theory of the multiverse is an argument of convenience for atheists who do not want to face-up to the obvious implications of a fine-tuned universe. My point was that the multiverse theory provides no such opportunity. The theory says that the particular fundamental forces and constants of our universe need not have been as they are. The natural laws governing an adjacent universe could be otherwise. The whole theory resolves into one of two positions, either 1) reality is absurd or 2) meta-laws govern the process of universe generation. If the atheist takes the first option then he undermines the very idea of rationality. If he takes the second, he must acknowledge that fine-tuning is a real aspect of, not only our universe, but of the multiverse as a whole.
Sorry I missed this, Chad. (Been pretty busy on the home front.)
I'm surprised you would say " the multiverse is an argument of convenience for atheists who do not want to face-up to the obvious implications of a fine-tuned universe". Personally, I am unable to imagine that there is not a larger frame of reference than a universe. Obviously you think so too. But for you the larger frame of reference involves the supernatural. Surely though you don't really think the multiverse theory only exists as an atheist strategy. That would really be quite a conspiracy. I guess you mean that's why we like it. But my sense on this forum is that multiversalists are not in the majority among atheists.
As to facing up to a well tuned universe, what is the comparison by which we are to conclude that ours is more or less well tuned than your average universe? That again is information none of us may possess as far as I know.
I haven't a clue why you think anything I might believe which has to do with being an atheist obliges me to think reality is absurd. I suppose one could look at it that way. But I don't. I'd rather say it is exquisite.
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