(August 24, 2015 at 6:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Yeah, you've missed the whole point. Even atheist scholars concede that Jesus did exist.

Which atheist scholar besides Ehrman makes this assertive claim? As I always keep saying, he's one. Who are the others? The real point is you being a one trick pony, who still only quotemines the one person who happens to agree with his claim.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 10:40 am)drfuzzy Wrote: From the Bart Ehrmann cut 'n' paste: "It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure."

PRECISELY. So they studied their asses off. Good for them. Who cares? In fact, who cares whether Jesus existed or was a combination of very old myths in a newer package?  THEY STARTED OFF TRYING TO PROVE THEIR OWN DELUSION. That makes any conclusion they reach invalid.

Like Ehrman?

Yeah, you've missed the whole point. Even atheist scholars concede that Jesus did exist.

I keep reading this thing that you write... It keeps grinding my gears...
A Jesus did most likely exist, I'll grant you that.

But what qualities does that Jesus have? What did he do?
What does Ehrman say about that Jesus that did exist? What do the scholars say about that Jesus?

(August 22, 2015 at 9:28 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(August 22, 2015 at 7:49 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: Why are we wasting time with this idiot? He is obviously operating under the influence of a blow to the head with a heavy blunt object.
[...]

Because to us - it's just a discussion, with almost nothing at stake. Randy on the other hand is desperately fighting for his salvation and the eternal life he's been conned into believing in - and failing at it. It's morbidly fascinating - like watching a venomous spider trying to climb out of the bath-tub.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:15 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 6:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Like Ehrman?

Yeah, you've missed the whole point. Even atheist scholars concede that Jesus did exist.

I keep reading this thing that you write... It keeps grinding my gears...
A Jesus did most likely exist, I'll grant you that.

But what qualities does that Jesus have? What did he do?
What does Ehrman say about that Jesus that did exist? What do the scholars say about that Jesus?

^  This ^

A historical Jesus matters little if all that can be said of him is that he lived, preached, and was crucified.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:15 pm)pocaracas Wrote: What does Ehrman say about that Jesus that did exist? What do the scholars say about that Jesus?

Ehrman makes his statement based on studying the scriptures. In that he's an expert, but he didn't do any field work. He's no historian or archeologist. He's a theologian. And he's the only one making an assertive statement about Jesus' existence, based on his study of scripture. That's the one point where he's dishonest. Not because he's making a claim, but because he's making an assertive claim.

Jesus' existence is very much up for debate and probably will be for times to come. There is no solid evidence of his existence, since if he existed, he was far to unimportant to leave anything behind. So all you're left with are educated guesses. And that's what Ehrman does. Many scholars swing indeed in the direction of a person named Jesus having existed. But they aren't assertive about it, which, in absence of stone cold evidence, is the honest thing to do.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:14 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 6:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Yeah, you've missed the whole point. Even atheist scholars concede that Jesus did exist.

Which atheist scholar besides Ehrman makes this assertive claim? As I always keep saying, he's one. Who are the others? The real point is you being a one trick pony, who still only quotemines the one person who happens to agree with his claim.

Well, I chose Ehrman because he's had so many books on the NY Times bestseller list, you've obviously heard of him.

Others might include Maurice Casey, Paula Fredriksen, Jeffrey Gibson, Gerd Ludemann...

I can do some additional Googling if you need more.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:23 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 6:14 pm)abaris Wrote: Which atheist scholar besides Ehrman makes this assertive claim? As I always keep saying, he's one. Who are the others? The real point is you being a one trick pony, who still only quotemines the one person who happens to agree with his claim.

Well, I chose Ehrman because he's had so many books on the NY Times bestseller list, you've obviously heard of him.

Others might include Maurice Casey, Paula Fredriksen, Jeffrey Gibson, Gerd Ludemann...

I can do some additional Googling if you need more.

If Jesus existed what were his three most important original ideas?

OK, one historian, the rest theologians. None of them atheists. All specialised in bible studies. Did you even read my question?

(August 24, 2015 at 6:15 pm)pocaracas Wrote:

(August 24, 2015 at 6:08 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Like Ehrman?

Yeah, you've missed the whole point. Even atheist scholars concede that Jesus did exist.

I keep reading this thing that you write... It keeps grinding my gears...
A Jesus did most likely exist, I'll grant you that.

But what qualities does that Jesus have? What did he do?
What does Ehrman say about that Jesus that did exist? What do the scholars say about that Jesus?

A good chunk...maybe 75% or so, accept the Five Minimal Facts which I posted in another thread.

This is a multi-step process, poca.

1. Provide evidence that Jesus existed. (A bigger ordeal than I imagined early on given the absurdity of mythicism.)
2. Provide evidence that Jesus was resurrected. (This is based on indirect evidence and based on probabilities and not certainties.)
3. Provide an argument that if Jesus rose from the dead, then his claims of divinity are worthy of consideration.

Maybe there are probably other steps...but you get the idea.

Getting past step one is a huge hurdle in this forum.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:18 pm)Jenny A Wrote:

(August 22, 2015 at 9:28 pm)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Because to us - it's just a discussion, with almost nothing at stake. Randy on the other hand is desperately fighting for his salvation and the eternal life he's been conned into believing in - and failing at it. It's morbidly fascinating - like watching a venomous spider trying to climb out of the bath-tub.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:15 pm)pocaracas Wrote: I keep reading this thing that you write... It keeps grinding my gears...
A Jesus did most likely exist, I'll grant you that.

But what qualities does that Jesus have? What did he do?
What does Ehrman say about that Jesus that did exist? What do the scholars say about that Jesus?

^  This ^

A historical Jesus matters little if all that can be said of him is that he lived, preached, and was crucified.

As you well know, this is not all that can be safely said about him.

(August 24, 2015 at 6:29 pm)abaris Wrote: OK, one historian, the rest theologians. None of them atheists. All specialised in bible studies. Did you even read my question?

Yes. You asked, "Who are the others?" I named some atheists who admit Jesus existed.

Gerd Ludemann was not an atheist?