(August 27, 2015 at 5:53 pm)Rhythm Wrote: You'd have been capable of whatever it was you were capable of -without- the gun.  Guns aren't magic, they don't change who you are or what you're prepared to do.  People don't say to themselves "well, normally I wouldn't shoot this street corner up/kill myself, but....since I have a gun........". 

Actually, yeah they fucking do. 

Guns do change what people are prepared to do. This is the same bullshit argument as when people try to make out like you could just as easily run someone over with a car or stab them to death. It's piss poor. 

I know for a fact that I've had some dark times in my life too, and I can tell you right now if my parents had a gun in the household like they likely would if we were a yankee family, I don't know if I'd still be here typing this today. Bottom line is guns make shit a hell of a lot easier. If I were to kill myself, I'd 100% choose a gun to do it. Only thing stopping me from jumping off a bridge already or smashing my car into oncoming traffic is that I'm a coward. A gun would eliminate a lot of that doubt and fear. It would take a lot less to pull a trigger than to slit my wrists. 

I'm sure it's the same for a lot of people who consider suicide. 

But likewise for those twisted fucks who have intentions of killing others. Yeah, a gun absolutely makes it easier. You're way more capable with a gun than without. You're talking absolute shit here Rhythm.

(August 27, 2015 at 9:08 am)Rhythm Wrote:

(August 27, 2015 at 6:40 am)robvalue Wrote: It seems to me that the average American only "needs" a gun because every other fucker has one too.

I don't get what's different about the US, plenty of other countries get by without guns being available to everyone. At the very least, you should have to go through serious background and competence checks every time you want a gun, in my opinion. And you should need an actual reason too. That's how it seems to be in England; some people do have guns, but they have a reason for it. The fact that "self defence against everyone else who has guns" is considered a reason is the problem. I don't consider "I like guns and I want one" a good enough reason either.

But that's just me. This isn't about oppressing people, it's about keeping needlessly dangerous items out of general circulation.

Walmart runs a background check at point of sale (it's usually done in minutes but -can- take days and you just don;t get to leave the store /w the gun until it;s handled), -on this form..they actually do ask you the purpose for the purchase, and they're not exactly bastions of good policy and responsible merchandising.  Doesn;t seem to hurt their sales, and it;s not something that people picket walmart over - so I don't see why that couldn't be a reality everywhere....since it already is in every walmart.  The only place you can get a gun scott-free, as it were, is a P2P sale.  That's why guns shows are so big, it's a P2P tent sell, essentially, so they're allowed to circumvent laws and standard industry practice - and even as a "gun nut" myself I can see that this needs to be changed.  It shouldn't be possible for me to point to walmart as a beacon of responsibility in firearm sales, relative to the rest........eh?

If a person wants a gun all he has to do is burglarize three random houses and he will get at least four or five guns.  No background check hassle.

(August 27, 2015 at 7:02 pm)Napoléon Wrote: I know for a fact that I've had some dark times in my life too, and I can tell you right now if my parents had a gun in the household like they likely would if we were a yankee family, I don't know if I'd still be here typing this today. Bottom line is guns make shit a hell of a lot easier. If I were to kill myself, I'd 100% choose a gun to do it. Only thing stopping me from jumping off a bridge already or smashing my car into oncoming traffic is that I'm a coward. A gun would eliminate a lot of that doubt and fear. It would take a lot less to pull a trigger than to slit my wrists. 

And that's why Rhythm has a point and is wrong at the same time.

Right, because the gun doesn't change who you are. Wrong because having a gun makes it easier to act on impulses. A knife is up close and personal and so is strangulation or any other method a sick mind can come up with. Pulling a trigger doesn't require to get physical.

A point that many forensic psychologists make and is also made in the book "On killing", written by David Grossman. A book that Rhythm, by his own account, had to read as part of his military education.

Napoléon Wrote:Actually, yeah they fucking do.

GL explaining how.  

Quote:Guns do change what people are prepared to do.

Again, gl explaining how.

Quote:This is the same bullshit argument as when people try to make out like you could just as easily run someone over with a car or stab them to death. It's piss poor. 

Nothing I've argued, and in no way relevant to anything I said.  Hey, carry on criticizing some other persons argument about some other issue which you think is piss poor.  

Quote:I know for a fact that I've had some dark times in my life too, and I can tell you right now if my parents had a gun in the household like they likely would if we were a yankee family, I don't know if I'd still be here typing this today.

You know for a fact...that you don't know?

Quote:Bottom line is guns make shit a hell of a lot easier. If I were to kill myself, I'd 100% choose a gun to do it. Only thing stopping me from jumping off a bridge already or smashing my car into oncoming traffic is that I'm a coward. A gun would eliminate a lot of that doubt and fear. It would take a lot less to pull a trigger than to slit my wrists. 

Yeah, they absolutely make it easier to do whatever it was you were already capable of doing -if- that thing involves a gun.  I swear to christ..it seems like you think that guns are the one ring to rule them all.....like a pistol in my pocket for long enough will turn me into a troll.....

Quote:I'm sure it's the same for a lot of people who consider suicide. 

But likewise for those twisted fucks who have intentions of killing others. Yeah, a gun absolutely makes it easier. You're way more capable with a gun than without. You're talking absolute shit here Rhythm.

Equivocating on the word capable.

Look, man, I don't think it's a good idea for a suicidal person to have access to a gun either, but that access, that -gun- isn't why it;s a bad idea..it;s what they are -already capable of doing- that makes it a bad idea. If they aren;t capable of committing suicide...if it's just not in them....I wouldn't expect them to commit suicide with that gun...or anything else. If they are, I'd take the laces out of their shoes.

@Wyrd, probably not true, but close enough in effect as to be so. He might not find a gun in the first 4, he might find 10 in the 5th.

(August 27, 2015 at 12:37 pm)Exian Wrote:

(August 27, 2015 at 12:07 pm)Napoléon Wrote: And the immediate thought of an American is "shoot it".

How typical...

This is the disconnect I was talking about. I'm assuming you live in a densely populated area, if not then I'm wrong all the way around. I'm pretty uncomfortable with guns, but it's different in the country, and that's hard to get across. Guns have uses in the country other than to murder or protect yourself from humans. I think there should be a greater distinction placed on gun ownership in the city vs. the country when the discussion is brought up. And that goes for both sides of the argument. When a shooting occurs in some town or city, all my country friends get all up in arms about how it wasn't the guns fault, or how they have to pay for the mistakes of the few. They aren't even considering the type of gun used or the location, and they end up defending handgun ownership in densely populated areas.

Do let equal rights be a stranger to you.

(August 27, 2015 at 1:33 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(August 26, 2015 at 7:57 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: You don't need a license to own knives or rocks.  And they have killed millions if not billions of people throughout history.  

Guns are an efficient tool to use to level the playing field between people.  They help the oppressed resist the oppressors.

Oh god, take your tea party crap and shove it.

A little History lesson for you. The Allies, after WW1, put heavy gun restrictions on Germany, WWhen Hitler took power, he expanded gun rights, but only to party loyalists.

And even after WW2,  both Germany and Japan still to this day have much stricter gun laws, and neither are fascist states.

Germany and Japan also restricted possession of traditional weapons so why wouldn't they restrict possession of modern guns?  Why do people want to restrict freedoms instead of expand them?  They have the Moses complex.  They think that if they have a billion laws that everything will be perfect and that they will be eternally safe without any problems.

It's illegal to fire a gun in city limits here (outside of a range), but perfectly lawful to fire a gun within the county that city is situated in.  I see no problem with this law, nor do I see any issue for equal rights. Seems like a pretty solid law, to me. You can -own- a gun regardless, of course...and you can carry, open carry, regardless - except for specific zones within the city (mostly schools, the hospital, the police station, city hall..lol)

(August 26, 2015 at 6:16 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: So, maybe the lesson to be learned is this: Don't piss people off because they might be crazy enough to blow you away for no reason whatsover or because you did them a real wrong. And sometimes bad shit happens to good people, like it did to the woman who got shot just because she was there.

Here's hoping that we can make it through the day in one piece. If we do then it was a very good day indeed.

Victim blame much?

(August 26, 2015 at 6:55 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Brits are sheep who are OK with being oppressed. 

I must be an above average American if I can remember several peasant uprisings to deal with assholes in power....in Britain.

(August 26, 2015 at 7:43 pm)Exian Wrote: The way I understand, I may be wrong, but if you want to adopt a child, the powers that be will come investigate your house and interview you. Owning a gun should come with that and then some.

Holy fuck, yes. I literally went through more of a process to adopt a fucking dog - A DOG - than my ex did to purchase a gun.

(August 26, 2015 at 7:52 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: You are oversimplifying things. You presume that not having massacres is of primal concern. It's not. FREEDOM is of primal concern. Eliminating massacres is a good thing but if it comes at the cost of freedom, the price is too high. Get it?

What freedoms do you think are actually going to be taken away at this point? We are so far past the 18th century. This isn't Red Dawn. If the gov't was actually going to oppress us, they have far more advanced methods. Your 9mm isn't going to do shit.

(August 27, 2015 at 7:46 pm)thesummerqueen Wrote: If the gov't was actually going to oppress us, they have far more advanced methods. Your 9mm isn't going to do shit.

Exactly.....you need something with a longer barrel, less stopping power, and more penetration.  A rifle.   Ask the Jihadis. 

I second the strangeness on the ease of purchasing a gun vs adopting a dog. I got mine from the pound...not even a reputable place - and it took longer than it's ever taken to walk off with a gun. Irritating -and- disturbing.