(August 28, 2015 at 10:14 am)Shuffle Wrote: Ok, so what is your position on the OP?

That my religiosity, religious behaviour and religious identity are 3 separate yet complicit objects so although I hold certain antitheistic views, I'm no more an antitheist than I am an atheist. I prefer to look at it like this: my value systems are atheistic (they have an absence of theistic propositions) and sometimes antitheistic (they can lie in opposition to theistic values), my religiosity is irreligious, my behaviour is secular and my identity is Ben Davis.

When I'm being antitheistic, feel free to say so but remember that it rarely serves to reduce personalities to one-dimensional labels because that ignores people's intellectual complexity and is often patronising.

(August 28, 2015 at 10:04 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 9:20 am)Nestor Wrote: Yeah, like those. How about being nice because you've thought about good reasons to be nice? Because you value the present life more than one that exists in your imagination?

How is anti-theist a blanket statement? It simply means I'm against theism for its effects that I see as harmful - including the doing of good from ignorant motivations.

I think a lot of folks here see it the wrong way. Being "religiously motivated" to do good deeds is not necessarily about doing them for the sole purpose of being "rewarded" in Heaven or whatever. That would be simplistic and kind of counter productive anyway, since it's nothing but self serving and the whole point is selflessness and love. 

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

I don't think I'd appreciate it all too much if one of my friends accused me of doing good things only because I'm trying to go to Heaven.

In all fairness, it's hardly atheists' fault for inclining to that view of religious motivations. A lot of religous people present themselves as subscribing to that self-serving reward/punishment system of morality through their behavior. The supposed accompanying baggage of loving thy neighbor, coming to peace and understanding with God, spiritual growth and what not just end up being a pantomime.

(August 28, 2015 at 11:28 am)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 10:04 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think a lot of folks here see it the wrong way. Being "religiously motivated" to do good deeds is not necessarily about doing them for the sole purpose of being "rewarded" in Heaven or whatever. That would be simplistic and kind of counter productive anyway, since it's nothing but self serving and the whole point is selflessness and love. 

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

I don't think I'd appreciate it all too much if one of my friends accused me of doing good things only because I'm trying to go to Heaven.

In all fairness, it's hardly atheists' fault for inclining to that view of religious motivations. A lot of religous people present themselves as subscribing to that self-serving reward/punishment system of morality through their behavior. The supposed accompanying baggage of loving thy neighbor, coming to peace and understanding with God, spiritual growth and what not just end up being a pantomime.

I just find it strange, because I come on here and see such horrible experiences y'all have had with people of faith, while my own experiences with them have been mostly very positive. I don't doubt y'alls claims, of course. It's a shame there are so many Christians who give off that vibe and act that way. That totally sucks. I guess I've been lucky not to have encountered many of them.

It's almost as if peoples experiences of faith aren't uniform, even when the faiths they belong to are....almost as if some other variable is at play, that the faith in question has no operative effect in our lives which is consistent and demonstrable........almost.....

(August 28, 2015 at 11:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I just find it strange, because I come on here and see such horrible experiences y'all have had with people of faith, while my own experiences with them have been mostly very positive. I don't doubt y'alls claims, of course. It's a shame there are so many Christians who give off that vibe and act that way. That totally sucks. I guess I've been lucky not to have encountered many of them.

You almost certainly have encountered them, many times, without realising. Your experiences have been mainly positive because you're inside the bubble of the religion. Religions almost universally have plenty of benefits for the in-group but are automatically divisive with penalties for the out-group. This is the type of instiutionalised religious tribalism that leads to things like the xenophobia of fundamentalists. Because it's been ingrained to you, probably since birth, and so many people share your religion in your society, you may not have noticed it until it was pointed out to you. You may even have been horrible to non-believers without realising that you're being so.

I feel lucky that I was born in to a society that doesn't grant religion such privilege.

(August 28, 2015 at 12:09 pm)Ben Davis Wrote:

(August 28, 2015 at 11:34 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I just find it strange, because I come on here and see such horrible experiences y'all have had with people of faith, while my own experiences with them have been mostly very positive. I don't doubt y'alls claims, of course. It's a shame there are so many Christians who give off that vibe and act that way. That totally sucks. I guess I've been lucky not to have encountered many of them.

You almost certainly have encountered them, many times, without realising. Your experiences have been mainly positive because you're inside the bubble of the religion. Religions almost universally have plenty of benefits for the in-group but are automatically divisive with penalties for the out-group. This is the type of instiutionalised religious tribalism that leads to things like the xenophobia of fundamentalists. Because it's been ingrained to you, probably since birth, and so many people share your religion in your society, you may not have noticed it until it was pointed out to you. You may even have been horrible to non-believers without realising that you're being so.

I feel lucky that I was born in to a society that doesn't grant religion such privilege.

Respectfully, I don't think anyone here can tell me who I have and have not encountered, and whether I would or would not be able to get a vibe for what type of people they are. Furthermore, I'm not so cold hearted and unaware that I wouldn't "notice" that myself or my group were "being horrible" to other people.

I love ya, but I gotta be honest, I did not appreciate this comment very much.

Catholic_Lady Wrote:What exactly does it mean to be "anti-theist?"

Literally, it sounds like you're anti religious people, but I don't think that's what it's supposed to mean lol...

I've always taken it as 'you shouldn't be a theist'. Conceivably, someone could be a theist because they can't help of what they're convinced, but still think people shouldn't be theists.

I think 'anti-dogma' would make a more appropriate identifier. If you're getting your beliefs from a list of things you're supposed to believe, the potential for mischief is quite high.

Ben Davis Wrote:*rolls up sleeves

Right, definitions time, everyone. Antitheism (noun - per. 'antitheist'):

1. 'In opposition to theism'. This is a general term which can be applied to any scenario which sits in opposition to theism (e.g. a religious person may express a position which is antitheistic, often in relation to other religions). It can be applied specifically ('that theistic claim is wrong') or generally ('I think all theisms are wrong').

2. 'Disbelief in theistic propositions'. This is the specific counter-claim to theistic propositions; the claim that 'no god/s exist'. Also known as Gnostic or Strong atheism. This can be expressed specifically ('Shiva doesn't exist') or generally ('There's no such thing as gods')

3. 'Opposed to organised religion'. This is a position that, once again, can be espoused by religious/irreligious alike (although it's more likely to be pagan or deist religionists rather than theists).

To pick a nit, on number 2, disbelief can mean either not believing or believing not, so it encompasses both weak and strong definitions for atheism.

Catholic_Lady Wrote:

Ben Davis Wrote:You almost certainly have encountered them, many times, without realising. Your experiences have been mainly positive because you're inside the bubble of the religion. Religions almost universally have plenty of benefits for the in-group but are automatically divisive with penalties for the out-group. This is the type of instiutionalised religious tribalism that leads to things like the xenophobia of fundamentalists. Because it's been ingrained to you, probably since birth, and so many people share your religion in your society, you may not have noticed it until it was pointed out to you. You may even have been horrible to non-believers without realising that you're being so.

I feel lucky that I was born in to a society that doesn't grant religion such privilege.

Respectfully, I don't think anyone here can tell me who I have and have not encountered, and whether I would or would not be able to get a vibe for what type of people they are. Furthermore, I'm not so cold hearted and unaware that I wouldn't "notice" that myself or my group were "being horrible" to other people.

I love ya, but I gotta be honest, I did not appreciate this comment very much.

I think the point attempted was that none of us know all those things about the people we meet. When I was 42, I had knowingly met two atheists my whole life. That realization prompted me to start a group in 2003. I scheduled meetings and the first three or four, I was the only one to show up. Then two people besides myself came to a meeting. And I knew one of them, I just hadn't known they were an atheist. Eleven years later, I've met hundreds of atheists. But if I hadn't made a special effort, it would be a lot less...at least knowingly.

I met a serial killer in the eighties, also unknowingly, didn't find out until months later. Unless we live in a very closed environment, we're going to meet a lot of people we don't know much about.

I can't even tell who I have and haven't encountered, 100%. I've probably met pedophiles and heroes without being able to tell the difference because people don't present everything about themselves, sometimes not even when you've known them a long time.

(August 28, 2015 at 12:44 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote:

Catholic_Lady Wrote:Respectfully, I don't think anyone here can tell me who I have and have not encountered, and whether I would or would not be able to get a vibe for what type of people they are. Furthermore, I'm not so cold hearted and unaware that I wouldn't "notice" that myself or my group were "being horrible" to other people.

I love ya, but I gotta be honest, I did not appreciate this comment very much.

I think the point attempted was that none of us know all those things about the people we meet. When I was 42, I had knowingly met two atheists my whole life. That realization prompted me to start a group in 2003. I scheduled meetings and the first three or four, I was the only one to show up. Then two people besides myself came to a meeting. And I knew one of them, I just hadn't known they were an atheist. Eleven years later, I've met hundreds of atheists. But if I hadn't made a special effort, it would be a lot less...at least knowingly.

I met a serial killer in the eighties, also unknowingly, didn't find out until months later. Unless we live in a very closed environment, we're going to meet a lot of people we don't know much about.

I understand that, and it makes sense.

I guess I should have specified by saying I've literally been surrounded by people of faith my whole life. Went to a Catholic school from K-8th grade, was very active in our Church, was part of my Church's youth group during high school, and was part of the Catholic student association in college (where my husband lived at the parish dorms with all these folks, so I was over there all the time when we were dating). That, and mine and my husbands families are both pretty devout. 

So it's not like it was just people passing by that I didn't know so well. Not that all these people acted perfectly all the time, of course, but I definitely never saw anything like what has been described here. I know it happens though, so I understand how lucky I've been.