No More Anti-Theists

[The Grand Nudger]

Respectfully, I don't think anyone here can tell me who I have and have not encountered, and whether I would or would not be able to get a vibe for what type of people they are. Furthermore, I'm not so cold hearted and unaware that I wouldn't "notice" that myself or my group were "being horrible" to other people.

I love ya, but I gotta be honest, I did not appreciate this comment very much.

You think you'd notice huh?  I seem to recall you asking what reason an atheist had for being good. That's pretty fucking horrible. I could go on, and on..just from what interaction I've had with you/seen from you...on these boards alone. Somethings tells me that in the midst of a gaggle of catholics, you're even worse.

[Catholic_Lady]

Respectfully, I don't think anyone here can tell me who I have and have not encountered, and whether I would or would not be able to get a vibe for what type of people they are. Furthermore, I'm not so cold hearted and unaware that I wouldn't "notice" that myself or my group were "being horrible" to other people.

I love ya, but I gotta be honest, I did not appreciate this comment very much.

You think you'd notice huh?  I seem to recall you asking what reason an atheist had for being good.  That's pretty fucking horrible.

It is horrible. 

I never asked that.

[The Grand Nudger]

My apologies, if I'm misremembering you as the author of one of our neverending streams of "why be good" threads.

[Divinity]

You almost certainly have encountered them, many times, without realising. Your experiences have been mainly positive because you're inside the bubble of the religion. Religions almost universally have plenty of benefits for the in-group but are automatically divisive with penalties for the out-group. This is the type of instiutionalised religious tribalism that leads to things like the xenophobia of fundamentalists. Because it's been ingrained to you, probably since birth, and so many people share your religion in your society, you may not have noticed it until it was pointed out to you. You may even have been horrible to non-believers without realising that you're being so.

I feel lucky that I was born in to a society that doesn't grant religion such privilege.

I think another part of this is an individuals religious views cause them to view different things as 'good' than those without religious views.

For example a Christian who doesn't believe in gay marriage may see someone who says "Gay love isn't love, it's perversion!" as good, because they share that view.

[Marsellus Wallace]

I'd say I'm a Christian Anti-Theist.  Fuck, that describes me pretty damn well.

I find religion stupid, and the tool of man.  But I believe in Jesus.  I just don't believe everything written about him.  Maybe 'agnostic christian anti-theist deist' and you've got your description of me.

If I had a bar, and jezuz turned water to wine, i'd be pissed and crucify his ass.

[Catholic_Lady]

My apologies, if I'm misremembering you as the author of one of our neverending streams of "why be good" threads.

No worries. I'm sure they all run together.

I started this thread: http://atheistforums.org/thread-34018.html

Which is related to goodness but is not asking why atheists are good, and which in fact points out that this is a silly question.

[The Grand Nudger]

Probably why I mis-remembered.  I could, of course, bring any number of other examples to light.  Thing is, there's no sense in taking offense to someone mentioning that you might be horrible to some other person without being aware.  You don't know what's horrible to another person, and there's no reason you'd be aware of it if you don't share that opinion.  To think that it's never happened, to think that you are so perceptive as to be a mind reader is ludicrous.  You know I have a low opinion of you.....has it never occurred to you that my low opinion might have something to do with what is horrible to me, but not to you?  That our disconnect might actually be a demonstration of just what you objected to? It's an effect at play when any two individuals or groups with widely different social, cultural, or moral norms interact. We don't always recognize when we are being horrible, because -within our group-..what we're doing or saying isn't horrible.

[comet]

Yeah, like those. How about being nice because you've thought about good reasons to be nice? Because you value the present life more than one that exists in your imagination?

How is anti-theist a blanket statement? It simply means I'm against theism for its effects that I see as harmful - including the doing of good from ignorant motivations.

I think a lot of folks here see it the wrong way. Being "religiously motivated" to do good deeds is not necessarily about doing them for the sole purpose of being "rewarded" in Heaven or whatever. That would be simplistic and kind of counter productive anyway, since it's nothing but self serving and the whole point is selflessness and love. 

Growing up Catholic, I learned about the virtues of charity, generosity, forgiveness, honesty, etc etc, and I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear. Those are the values that I was taught in my faith based upbringing, just like everyone (religious or not) grows up being taught certain values. 

I don't think I'd appreciate it all too much if one of my friends accused me of doing good things only because I'm trying to go to Heaven.

I am with ya girlie.  The bottom line is people are people.  Religion has some very good parts and needed parts.  If we take a bird's eye view of humans, anti religion is like anti democracy.  Neither are perfect but no need to go ballz crazy. the numbers just don't jive.  But many people that are emotionally connected to anti religion don't care anymore about facts than you would when I say Jesus never died and flew away.

[The Grand Nudger]

What part of religion is good?  What part of religion is needed, and for what? I will gently remind that anti-theism is not anti-religion, as well.

For you Cath since I missed this, and since you were wondering what anti-theism was or meant or implied

I learned about having respect for and seeing the dignity in all people. Because all people (and all creation, really) are made by God and thus have inherent dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant they may appear.

I learned that too. I also learned that people have dignity and worth, no matter how small or insignificant. The position of anti-theism, here, is not negation of any of those things, but the negation of any acceptance that -because we are made by god- these things are true. The position of anti-theism is that this is a seriously flawed reason to believe those things, that it is not effective or consistent, and because of this, it can and -does- lead to the exact opposite for entirely predictable reasons. If people, for example, believe that some group was not created by god, or that god has commanded them to kill that group.....all of that dignity and worth goes out the window in a flash ..as it does, repeatedly, in the biblical narrative. Or, if a person truly pins the dignity and worth of human life on our being created by god...and then stops believing in god.......

It's the position that the attachment of god, or the invocation of god is a negative thing, even where what is attached to god might be agreed to be positive. That the inclusion or necessity -of god- serves to belittle or diminish the goodness or importance of those other things. Getting it right -for the right reason-, is preferable, to an anti-theist, over getting it right for the wrong reason (or, plainly, no reason).

[comet]

like being nice to others? or trying to give the extras one has to people that don't have them?  kind of decisions? 

Just sayin.

Yeah, like those. How about being nice because you've thought about good reasons to be nice? Because you value the present life more than one that exists in your imagination?

How is anti-theist a blanket statement? It simply means I'm against theism for its effects that I see as harmful - including the doing of good from ignorant motivations.

And some people are anti demecoracy too.

What happened that made you so against religion?  The numbers don't support total hatred. I mean I had normal parents that followed a religion so we were taught to be nice to people no matter what they believe.  They told me if I don't believe, then be nice because then all we have is each other.  What the fuck did your parents say?