Surely it is your interpretation of the statue being hateful that is the problem rather than the intended meaning? I can see where you are coming from with your argument but you are only seeing it through rose tinted glasses.

(September 9, 2015 at 5:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As isolated symbols in the same property, I don't take issue with. But when one is already there and you put the other one right next to it, just seems like a sign of hate to me.

Then the only issues you seem to have pertain to which of the symbols have the prior claim and the relative proximity. Out of interest, what sort of separation wouldn't be a sign of hate to you - twelve inches? Six feet? Twenty feet?

(September 9, 2015 at 6:23 pm)StuW Wrote: Surely it is your interpretation of the statue being hateful that is the problem rather than the intended meaning?  I can see where you are coming from with your argument but you are only seeing it through rose tinted glasses.

Yes, I do think it would be hateful to put a Satan statue next to a Christian monument. I understand that to the Satanists, it means something other than evil and hate, but it still came from the bible as those things.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:28 pm)Stimbo Wrote:

(September 9, 2015 at 5:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As isolated symbols in the same property, I don't take issue with. But when one is already there and you put the other one right next to it, just seems like a sign of hate to me.

Then the only issues you seem to have pertain to which of the symbols have the prior claim and the relative proximity. Out of interest, what sort of separation wouldn't be a sign of hate to you - twelve inches? Six feet? Twenty feet?

Probably just far away enough so it doesn't look like they are meant to be associated.

(September 9, 2015 at 5:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(September 9, 2015 at 5:49 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: "But putting a symbol that came from the Christian/Jewish religion to represent evil, right next to a Christian/Jewish symbol, is a clear and deliberate sign of hostility towards an entire group of people. And that's the part I don't agree with." The symbol means something to a religious group different from yours, that it stands for evil in other religions is not coincidental but does not mean that it is not the symbol for their group. Just because you don't agree with it does not give it less of a right to be there My point stands.

As isolated symbols in the same property, I don't take issue with. But when one is already there and you put the other one right next to it, just seems like a sign of hate to me.

It seems like that to you. I get that.

What does it seem like to Satanists?

What does the 10 Commandments mean for a non-Christian when displayed on government property? Especially given its decidedly unconstitutional message?

One of the by products of the establishment clause in cases like these is prominence of display. If the 10 Commandments are prominently displayed, then all other statues will require the same level of prominence.

You Christians can't help yourself, and put that shit right in the entrance driveway or the front lawn, and that, in order to not show preference for one over another, is the same place where other monuments must go.

Your objection to the Baphomet statue is noted, but not relevant to the Constitutionality of the statue. If the 10 Commandments are prominently displayed, so must the Satanist monument. Regardless of what it's message is to you.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:37 pm)SteelCurtain Wrote:

(September 9, 2015 at 5:54 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: As isolated symbols in the same property, I don't take issue with. But when one is already there and you put the other one right next to it, just seems like a sign of hate to me.

It seems like that to you. I get that.

What does it seem like to Satanists?

What does the 10 Commandments mean for a non-Christian when displayed on government property? Especially given its decidedly unconstitutional message?

One of the by products of the establishment clause in cases like these is prominence of display. If the 10 Commandments are prominently displayed, then all other statues will require the same level of prominence.

You Christians can't help yourself, and put that shit right in the entrance driveway or the front lawn, and that, in order to not show preference for one over another, is the same place where other monuments must go.

Your objection to the Baphomet statue is noted, but not relevant to the Constitutionality of the statue. If the 10 Commandments are prominently displayed, so must the Satanist monument. Regardless of what it's message is to you.

I'm not really bothered with any religious symbol being prominently displayed on public property. You're right, if one is allowed, they should all be allowed. I personally couldn't care less, so long as they didn't effect the laws or freedom of religion.

To get back to the point of the whole thing, the 10 Commandments don't represent this nation's laws.  They're not the foundation of our laws or Constitution, and anyone who says otherwise failed US history in school.  Most Commandments aren't applicable to actual legislation or jurisprudence (idols, the sabbath, coveting (outside of actual theft), cheating, honoring one's parents, etc.), and the rest are not unique to the Commandments at all.  The proposed display - again, incorrectly - implies that the Commandments were the foundation upon which that state's laws were conceived.  And that is troublesome.  The message is "These laws are Christian laws.  Not Muslim laws, Hindu laws, Wiccan laws, Voodoo laws, Satanic laws, etc.  But Christian laws."

By approving the display of one particular brand of religion's symbolism, they've painted themselves into a corner.  Either the visual implication - that this is the Christian god's country - is true, which is incredibly exclusionary and unconstitutional to boot, or that all religions have value when it comes to creating, implementing, and judging based on laws, and we're not picky about where our inspiration comes from.

That's why the best, and only, solution is to not have any such display.

But they are associated; that was the point, I think.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes, I do think it would be hateful to put a Satan statue next to a Christian monument. I understand that to the Satanists, it means something other than evil and hate, but it still came from the bible as those things.

You are aware, of course, that much of the meat of ol' Beelzebub's iconography finds its source in early christian attempts to discredit and demonize Baal, the god of the Philistine religion, by corrupting him into a demonic figure within the christian religion, yes? I mean, if you wanna talk about hate, the biblical version of the character was configured as much as possible to be an insult to the enemies if the Israelites, and didn't come from the bible at all.

If your problem is with hate, then an accurate knowledge of the history of the christian religion shows that there's plenty of hate there toward other religions, but also that christianity doesn't have sole ownership over the devil conceptually anyway. Your religion cannibalized other religions for its devil figures to insult them, you can't possibly now claim that what the figure means within your religion is the only legitimate version, nor that it's worthy of taking offense to when somebody else uses it for other purposes.

(September 9, 2015 at 6:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not really bothered with any religious symbol being prominently displayed on public property. You're right, if one is allowed, they should all be allowed. I personally couldn't care less, so long as they didn't effect the laws or freedom of religion.

Two things:
1) You realize you have spent this entire thread saying the exact opposite, right?

2) What do you think a possible effect of having the 10 Commandments on a courthouse/capital lawn is if not reinforcing the supremely flawed idea that people should be judged or laws enacted that stem from that list of "God's Laws" they see when they drive to work every day?