(November 15, 2010 at 4:21 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: There seem to be as many ideas of what god is as there are theists.

Its the fault of the religious texts which can be made to mean anything you like.

Those who believe in a personal god will invariably see an idealized version of themselves.

(November 17, 2010 at 9:30 am)DeistPaladin Wrote:

(November 15, 2010 at 4:21 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: There seem to be as many ideas of what god is as there are theists.-
Its the fault of the religious texts which can be made to mean anything you like.

Those who believe in a personal god will invariably see an idealized version of themselves.

Exactly DP, the God concept seems to be a projection from within not without, a need and not a discovery.

I'm not traipsing through 6 pages just to apologize for voting without reading the OP. I guess I see worship as more reverent respect and less on-your-knees lip service , but hey we all project a little of ourselves into our view of reality hunh. I have a lot of respect for my father who raised me and loved me all of my life. I'd give my life for his in a second. I can see how much more I would love him if I knew he sacrificed everything he had for me. How much more would that Love grow if I knew he not only died for me but to save everyone. Get the correlation? Plus this univers is frickin awesome, not to mention all of the day-to-day wonders of this world... it rocks and if he created it.. endless enumerative kudos.

Could not have said it better myself, tack.

We need an antikudo button.

Nothing says it better than a facepalm!

(November 20, 2010 at 4:50 am)tackattack Wrote: I'm not traipsing through 6 pages just to apologize for voting without reading the OP. I guess I see worship as more reverent respect and less on-your-knees lip service , but hey we all project a little of ourselves into our view of reality hunh. I have a lot of respect for my father who raised me and loved me all of my life. I'd give my life for his in a second. I can see how much more I would love him if I knew he sacrificed everything he had for me. How much more would that Love grow if I knew he not only died for me but to save everyone. Get the correlation? Plus this univers is frickin awesome, not to mention all of the day-to-day wonders of this world... it rocks and if he created it.. endless enumerative kudos.

1. There was no sacrifice if you beleive Jesus of Nazerath was god. He merely went through a phase transition to a superior realm and would have known thats what would happen.
2. What does it mean to say you "love" an immaterial, superntural entity and that this is returned. You cannot see, smell, touch, hear, talk to, taste? Every other sense of love we have is backed by our emotions which are tied to our physical state and brain chemistry. We love for a number of reasons all of them related to physical events.
3. Why is this love only available to a certain group of people? The religious demographic is almost wholly related to culture and tradition; meaning billions miss out? So why would god not want everyone to share in this.
4. The universe is also a very hostile and dangerous place. 99.99999999 etc % would instantly kill us. Yes we all look at it with awe, but why would a god maroon us on a planet that is only one capable of supporting us, yet earth is also filled with natural disasters.
5. Genocidal commands in the OT

It could go on, these are obviously evidential topics debated before; but they are all still waiting a convincing answer. From a logical perspective however we can't both have freewill and there be a god axiomatically worthy of worship, becuase we have to yield our freewill to perform the worship. Unless you are to argue that freewill is active only to the point at which you have decided to come to a god, after that you have to give up freewill. Thus you would argue that we don't have freewill at least in matters of moral autonomy.

(November 20, 2010 at 4:50 am)tackattack Wrote: I have a lot of respect for my father who raised me and loved me all of my life. I'd give my life for his in a second. I can see how much more I would love him if I knew he sacrificed everything he had for me. How much more would that Love grow if I knew he not only died for me but to save everyone.

And how would you feel about dear old dad if you discovered that, in a pique of rage, he blew up a dam and flooded a town, killing everyone. And he did this because he thought that everyone in the town had given in to temptation. (But he did warn one family of what he was about to do and they were able to get to safety.)

And what if the mayor of your hometown signed a law your dad considered unjust? Let's say your dad did everthing he could to get the mayor to repeal the law, but the mayor refused. Every day your dad went to the mayor pleading for the law to be overturned, but every time he was rebuffed. Finally, your dad goes out and kills the first born child of everyone in the town. What would you think of your dad then?

And let's say that you have a child who gets cancer. Your father can easily cure the disease with no effort whatsoever. All he has to do is wave his hand over your child and he would be cured! You ask your father to cure your child, but he refuses. Every day you ask him to cure your stricken child. But every day he says no, without giving a reason. Finally, after enduring many cancer treatments and months of unending pain, your child dies.

Would any of this change how you would feel about dear old dad?

Quote:Get the correlation?

Do you?

Quote:Plus this univers is frickin awesome, not to mention all of the day-to-day wonders of this world...

Some things about the universe are indeed "awesome". But the "day-to-day wonders of this world" include horrors such as cystic fibrosis, AIDS, ebola, malaria, flesh eating bacteria, internal parasites, blood sucking insects, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, mudslides, floods, meteor impacts, etc....

Quote:it rocks and if he created it.. endless enumerative kudos.

If some deity did happen to create this universe, it is obvious he doesn't give a fig about the welfare of humans.

(November 22, 2010 at 10:33 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote:

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(November 20, 2010 at 4:50 am)tackattack Wrote: I'm not traipsing through 6 pages just to apologize for voting without reading the OP. I guess I see worship as more reverent respect and less on-your-knees lip service , but hey we all project a little of ourselves into our view of reality hunh. I have a lot of respect for my father who raised me and loved me all of my life. I'd give my life for his in a second. I can see how much more I would love him if I knew he sacrificed everything he had for me. How much more would that Love grow if I knew he not only died for me but to save everyone. Get the correlation? Plus this univers is frickin awesome, not to mention all of the day-to-day wonders of this world... it rocks and if he created it.. endless enumerative kudos.

1. There was no sacrifice if you beleive Jesus of Nazerath was god. He merely went through a phase transition to a superior realm and would have known thats what would happen.
2. What does it mean to say you "love" an immaterial, superntural entity and that this is returned. You cannot see, smell, touch, hear, talk to, taste? Every other sense of love we have is backed by our emotions which are tied to our physical state and brain chemistry. We love for a number of reasons all of them related to physical events.
3. Why is this love only available to a certain group of people? The religious demographic is almost wholly related to culture and tradition; meaning billions miss out? So why would god not want everyone to share in this.
4. The universe is also a very hostile and dangerous place. 99.99999999 etc % would instantly kill us. Yes we all look at it with awe, but why would a god maroon us on a planet that is only one capable of supporting us, yet earth is also filled with natural disasters.
5. Genocidal commands in the OT

It could go on, these are obviously evidential topics debated before; but they are all still waiting a convincing answer. From a logical perspective however we can't both have freewill and there be a god axiomatically worthy of worship, becuase we have to yield our freewill to perform the worship. Unless you are to argue that freewill is active only to the point at which you have decided to come to a god, after that you have to give up freewill. Thus you would argue that we don't have freewill at least in matters of moral autonomy.

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1. Luckily most of Christianity believes in the trinity therefore Jesus of Nazerath isn't God the Father, and therefore not an issue. However if you're arguing if Jesus knew that he would die and then return to the Father, then yes he did.
2. Once again using only the material 5 senses is limiting the world to a materialistic view, which isn't mine. Love is more that what you can see, it's what you can't. It's intuitive and instinctual. No one taught you or I what love is or how to love, it's learned, not in our nature. Believe in love at first site? Love is perceived becuase of some kind of input or event, yes I agree, but if love were only based off seeing the object of your love or talking to them, how could you ever long or love someone over a distance? I think you're trying to overly-mechanize love.
3. It's not like a members only jacket , it's available to everyone. It's just like any relationship or covenant, it has 2 sides. Therefore by the strictest definition it's not unconditional, it has at least the condition of acceptance.
4. I'm glad that 99.9% of the Earth won't kill us. Does that make the Earth an anomally? What do you think is the reason for the disparity that 99.9% of the Universe would destroy life but the very being that ponder life have life and live there?
5. Yep those are horrible, luckily Jesus was the fufillment of the OT. Not to abolish it, but to teach us the true meaning of the laws and turn laws of condemnations into the path to life.

(November 22, 2010 at 1:25 pm)Thor Wrote:

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(November 20, 2010 at 4:50 am)tackattack Wrote: I have a lot of respect for my father who raised me and loved me all of my life. I'd give my life for his in a second. I can see how much more I would love him if I knew he sacrificed everything he had for me. How much more would that Love grow if I knew he not only died for me but to save everyone.

1-And how would you feel about dear old dad if you discovered that, in a pique of rage, he blew up a dam and flooded a town, killing everyone. And he did this because he thought that everyone in the town had given in to temptation. (But he did warn one family of what he was about to do and they were able to get to safety.)

And what if the mayor of your hometown signed a law your dad considered unjust? Let's say your dad did everthing he could to get the mayor to repeal the law, but the mayor refused. Every day your dad went to the mayor pleading for the law to be overturned, but every time he was rebuffed. Finally, your dad goes out and kills the first born child of everyone in the town. What would you think of your dad then?

2-And let's say that you have a child who gets cancer. Your father can easily cure the disease with no effort whatsoever. All he has to do is wave his hand over your child and he would be cured! You ask your father to cure your child, but he refuses. Every day you ask him to cure your stricken child. But every day he says no, without giving a reason. Finally, after enduring many cancer treatments and months of unending pain, your child dies.

3-Would any of this change how you would feel about dear old dad?

Quote:Get the correlation?

Do you?

Quote:Plus this univers is frickin awesome, not to mention all of the day-to-day wonders of this world...

Some things about the universe are indeed "awesome". But the "day-to-day wonders of this world" include horrors such as cystic fibrosis, AIDS, ebola, malaria, flesh eating bacteria, internal parasites, blood sucking insects, tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes, mudslides, floods, meteor impacts, etc....

Quote:it rocks and if he created it.. endless enumerative kudos.

4-If some deity did happen to create this universe, it is obvious he doesn't give a fig about the welfare of humans.

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1-I would say he's homicidal, but where you see God acting to kill people I see nature and people killing people.
2-poor analogy, the problem with it is that he does give answers to those who listen, and he does heal those who show faith, not beg
3-It would definately make me question and distrust , but I would stil love him, he's my father.
4- See 4 from the above quote

(November 23, 2010 at 3:07 am)tackattack Wrote: 1. Luckily most of Christianity believes in the trinity therefore Jesus of Nazerath isn't God the Father, and therefore not an issue. However if you're arguing if Jesus knew that he would die and then return to the Father, then yes he did.
2. Once again using only the material 5 senses is limiting the world to a materialistic view, which isn't mine. Love is more that what you can see, it's what you can't. It's intuitive and instinctual. No one taught you or I what love is or how to love, it's learned, not in our nature. Believe in love at first site? Love is perceived becuase of some kind of input or event, yes I agree, but if love were only based off seeing the object of your love or talking to them, how could you ever long or love someone over a distance? I think you're trying to overly-mechanize love.
3. It's not like a members only jacket , it's available to everyone. It's just like any relationship or covenant, it has 2 sides. Therefore by the strictest definition it's not unconditional, it has at least the condition of acceptance.
4. I'm glad that 99.9% of the Earth won't kill us. Does that make the Earth an anomally? What do you think is the reason for the disparity that 99.9% of the Universe would destroy life but the very being that ponder life have life and live there?
5. Yep those are horrible, luckily Jesus was the fufillment of the OT. Not to abolish it, but to teach us the true meaning of the laws and turn laws of condemnations into the path to life.

A complete response as ever Tack but hardly convincing
1. So we agree there was no sacrifice then, so why did you say there was?
2. Hardly, but I don't mystify it either. Stop the physical processes and love stops. Just look at the unfortunate cases of brain injury where husbands personalities have changed and the love between 2 devoted people dies. If love is immaterial it should survive, and this argument carries as much weight as substance dualism (which to me just seems like casusistry). You cannot name one example in reality where love exists outside of a physical process, except by begging the question on a god/s and putting that to the heart of you premises.
3. Quite so. And how Christians aren't happy until we believe it too. But still considering this is a truth claim it is remarkable that a god cannot provide enough evidence to move say a Hindu to atheism let alone christianity. The simplest explanation is that religions are natural, cultural phenomena.
4. In short no. It makes Earth part of a natural, material world. The processes which made earth are observed and support the theory; as yet the best explanation we have, needing no additional comments, but more research. You have avoided the question around why maroon us on this planet, and that needs an explanation.
5. The theological backing for that statement is beyond my understanding so I am going to plead ignorance. My initial sense of it is, it feels like spin. But then again that seems to be theologies purpose.
6. You did not counter the logical contradiction of worship.