I have even heard many preachers say that "most prayer is sinful".  I can't remember the entire list of how they say your prayer can anger gawd, but here are a few off of the top of my head:  praying while in disobedience (in other words, ignoring god's commands and not asking forgiveness for sins); praying in public to be heard by others (are you actually talking to gawd, or do you want other people to hear you talking to gawd?); praying while supporting the sinfulness of others (did your friend take her daughter to Planned Parenthood and you didn't try to stop her? for shame!); praying for material things (God is not Santa Claus); praying without belief (if you're doubting that gawd hears you, don't even bother); praising yourself rather than gawd (thank you gawd, that I was able to get my rude son to come to church today); praying out of duty (let's get this service over with so we can go to the game!); praying with people of other religions (because you are putting the true gawd as equal with idols); asking for gawd to heal your sick friend or family member (gawd knows they are sick, it is gawd's will); asking for gawd to change an outcome or a person . . . and on and on and on.

What the people are supposedly left is praise of gawd and a prayer that gawd's will be done at all times.  

So I'm with Rhonda and robvalue and others:  why bother?  What's in it for me?  Some studies say that prayer decreases stress and lowers blood pressure, but they also note that there is no scientific physiological difference between protestant prayer, praying the rosary, reciting mantras, sitting zazen, etc.  One would think, if an almighty Deity exists, he would surely not need constant praise.  But, for argument's sake, let's say he likes it.  Then he should reward the group that offers the best prayers, right?  Wrong.  Nothing.
    We hear threats of hell for sins we didn't even commit, but no one group of worshipers has ever been healthier, or wiser, or saner, or richer than any other group of worshipers.   The only people getting rich are the mega-preachers.   And oh boy - - their Jeebus wasn't fond of rich people . . . 

Well that was a ramble.  But that's my take on prayer.

I get what you're saying. Otherwise rational people dismiss the fact that the vast majority headaches eventually go away. It's more fun to believe that a wizard thinks that they're special.

(October 11, 2015 at 3:17 pm)Pyrrho Wrote:

(October 11, 2015 at 1:54 pm)robvalue Wrote: People pray because they think god's current plan could be improved with their suggestions.

I remember thinking about that as a child, when I was still a Christian.  Prayer seemed like blasphemy to me, as it would be doing just what you are saying.  I realized that people around me had this religion thing wrong, but it took a bit longer to realize that all religion is wrong.

Your point illustrates how irrational and inconsistent people are when it comes to their religion.  It does not take a genius to see that most religious people are inconsistent and therefore wrong, no matter what the truth is.  If one wants any hope of being right, one needs to be consistent.

Indeed! I'd be very interested in any theist explaining away this problem. If God does answer a prayer, that means he did in fact have a way to improve his plan; or else he is now making his plan worse because of accommodating the prayer. I suppose the nearest thing to a solution here is that God changes his plan to another equivalently good plan that accommodates the details of the prayer. That's a bit ridiculous, I wonder if anyone will go with that? If by changing the prayer that makes the person happier than they would otherwise be, then surely that makes the plan better in of itself. If not, he must add a negative factor in some other area to compensate for this happiness bonus. So you're asking God to shift stuff about; this still amounts to telling him how to do his job.

If he is changing his plan repeatedly because of prayers, then his initial plan is pretty pointless huh.

I think what we're dealing with is the contradictory beliefs that God answers prayers; yet has an unchanging master plan. The cognitive dissidence allows the theist to believe both at once.

Jesus innit?

9 hours of non-explanations.

By the argument from crickets, I declare that prayer is nothing but placebo and confirmation bias.

Dammit! I can't hold it in much longer.
I've been carrying a secret for 50 years and the guilt is killing me... I need to come clean.

When I was a wee little bugger, I prayed to God and asked him to stop involving himself with the affairs of others and to act as if he doesn't even exist.
It's all my fault ...I'm sorry everyone!

People think they need to pray because the Bible says prayer is part of their religion.

And because...

Desperation.

Wanting to talk to God.

Curiosity.

Delusion.

(October 11, 2015 at 5:14 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I have even heard many preachers say that "most prayer is sinful".  I can't remember the entire list of how they say your prayer can anger gawd, but here are a few off of the top of my head:  praying while in disobedience (in other words, ignoring god's commands and not asking forgiveness for sins); praying in public to be heard by others (are you actually talking to gawd, or do you want other people to hear you talking to gawd?); praying while supporting the sinfulness of others (did your friend take her daughter to Planned Parenthood and you didn't try to stop her? for shame!); praying for material things (God is not Santa Claus); praying without belief (if you're doubting that gawd hears you, don't even bother); praising yourself rather than gawd (thank you gawd, that I was able to get my rude son to come to church today); praying out of duty (let's get this service over with so we can go to the game!); praying with people of other religions (because you are putting the true gawd as equal with idols); asking for gawd to heal your sick friend or family member (gawd knows they are sick, it is gawd's will); asking for gawd to change an outcome or a person . . . and on and on and on.

What the people are supposedly left is praise of gawd and a prayer that gawd's will be done at all times.  

So I'm with Rhonda and robvalue and others:  why bother?  What's in it for me?  Some studies say that prayer decreases stress and lowers blood pressure, but they also note that there is no scientific physiological difference between protestant prayer, praying the rosary, reciting mantras, sitting zazen, etc.  One would think, if an almighty Deity exists, he would surely not need constant praise.  But, for argument's sake, let's say he likes it.  Then he should reward the group that offers the best prayers, right?  Wrong.  Nothing.
    We hear threats of hell for sins we didn't even commit, but no one group of worshipers has ever been healthier, or wiser, or saner, or richer than any other group of worshipers.   The only people getting rich are the mega-preachers.   And oh boy - - their Jeebus wasn't fond of rich people . . . 

Well that was a ramble.  But that's my take on prayer.

Based on this list, I don't think god will like if we pray to lower our blood pressure. God knows we have high blood pressure and if he wants it that way then that the way it should be.

Another reason why people pray.


Three preachers went on a fishing trip and while they were out on the water they decided to confess their sins.
First Preacher: My biggest temptation is drink. I just can’t stay away from it. I even keep a bottle in a drawer in the pastor’s study. I need your prayers.
Second Preacher: We’ll pray for you brother. Now my pet sin is lust. My personal time piece is broken on sex o’clock. I’m always thinking about it, even in the pulpit. I sure covet your prayers.
First Preacher: And we will pray for you.
Then there was silence. The first two preachers looked at the third preacher. He looked out at the water.
First Preacher. Come on, Brother Tibbs. We know you’ve got something you’d like to get off your chest. Confession is good for the soul.
Brother Tibbs: Well.
Second Preacher: You don’t have to be shamed among us. We’re all sinners saved by grace. No sin is better or worse than any other in the sight of gawd. Come on man, ‘fess up. ‘Fess up.
Brother Tibbs: Well, my biggest temptation is…gossip. I can’t keep a secret to save my life and I can’t wait to get back to town. I’m gonna have everybody praying for you fellers.

When I used to pray, I would concentrate hard enough to give myself a headache. And I saved my prayers for the really bad stuff too, it wasn't like I prayed for ponies and barbies. Not a one was ever answered. The ineffectiveness of prayer is how I came to the conclusion god is a either a sadist or doesn't exist.