(September 28, 2015 at 3:38 am)Cato Wrote:

(September 27, 2015 at 10:16 am)Little Rik Wrote: Like when most atheists imagine that with the physical death is all over and other sort of imaginations?  

There is not a single demonstrable case of another mind surviving the death of its vessel; i.e., the brain. Not one. Your beliefs in this matter are simply unjustified and unreasonable.

what about all the cases where people have experienced brain death and come back to life and reported having experiences after death all very similar to one another despite being from different cultures and beliefs ?

(October 14, 2015 at 8:34 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(September 28, 2015 at 3:38 am)Cato Wrote: There is not a single demonstrable case of another mind surviving the death of its vessel; i.e., the brain. Not one. Your beliefs in this matter are simply unjustified and unreasonable.

what about all the cases where people have experienced brain death and come back to life and reported having experiences after death all very similar to one another despite being from different cultures and beliefs ?

Do you have a specific, documented case you can cite? (People don't survive brain death afaik.)

(October 14, 2015 at 8:36 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 8:34 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: what about all the cases where people have experienced brain death and come back to life and reported having experiences after death all very similar to one another despite being from different cultures and beliefs ?

Do you have a specific, documented case you can cite?   (People don't survive brain death afaik.)

These days people can be dead for up to an hour and come back among us and have memories. when there is a lack of oxygen, our recollections are fuzzy and sometimes non-existent. The less oxygen you have, the less you remember. But the people who have died, and recall their death experiences, describe things in a very clear, concise, and structured way. Lack of oxygen would mean you barely remember anything.

"That even when the brain is shut down, on certain occasions consciousness endures. One of the doctors I interviewed, a cardiologist in Holland, believes that consciousness may go on forever. So the postulate among some scientists is that the brain is not the only locus of thought, which is very interesting."

why are religious people opposed to these reports ?...
"The Christian Church, or the Jewish faith, whichever we're talking about, also have very specific views of what life after death should involve. Everybody I interviewed deviated from the traditional theological views. They didn't see angels necessarily. They don't float in heaven. It's not some happy-clappy area of the universe. It's far more complicated—and interesting—than that."


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-booktalk/

(October 14, 2015 at 9:01 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 8:36 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Do you have a specific, documented case you can cite?   (People don't survive brain death afaik.)

These days people can be dead for up to an hour and come back among us and have memories. when there is a lack of oxygen, our recollections are fuzzy and sometimes non-existent. The less oxygen you have, the less you remember. But the people who have died, and recall their death experiences, describe things in a very clear, concise, and structured way. Lack of oxygen would mean you barely remember anything.

That even when the brain is shut down, on certain occasions consciousness endures. One of the doctors I interviewed, a cardiologist in Holland, believes that consciousness may go on forever. So the postulate among some scientists is that the brain is not the only locus of thought, which is very interesting.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-booktalk/

Quote:It's absolutely true that we don't know what happens, say, after six days being dead. All we know now—and that's one of the reasons I think it's important for scientists to investigate far more—is what happens up to an hour.

You spoke of people being brain dead. This is nothing of the sort. It's unclear what exactly is happening in near death experiences, but so far, all we have are anecdotes about "strange experiences" with no clear link to anything having to do with death and the afterlife. Matter of fact, a third of all NDEs occur in people who aren't even remotely near death. That alone suggests it is some natural, non-metaphysical event unrelated to the afterlife.

(October 14, 2015 at 9:12 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 9:01 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: These days people can be dead for up to an hour and come back among us and have memories. when there is a lack of oxygen, our recollections are fuzzy and sometimes non-existent. The less oxygen you have, the less you remember. But the people who have died, and recall their death experiences, describe things in a very clear, concise, and structured way. Lack of oxygen would mean you barely remember anything.

That even when the brain is shut down, on certain occasions consciousness endures. One of the doctors I interviewed, a cardiologist in Holland, believes that consciousness may go on forever. So the postulate among some scientists is that the brain is not the only locus of thought, which is very interesting.


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...-booktalk/

Quote:It's absolutely true that we don't know what happens, say, after six days being dead. All we know now—and that's one of the reasons I think it's important for scientists to investigate far more—is what happens up to an hour.

You spoke of people being brain dead.  This is nothing of the sort.  It's unclear what exactly is happening in near death experiences, but so far, all we have are anecdotes about "strange experiences" with no clear link to anything having to do with death and the afterlife.  Matter of fact, a third of all NDEs occur in people who aren't even remotely near death.  That alone suggests it is some natural, non-metaphysical event unrelated to the afterlife.

People Have NDE's While Brain Dead
http://www.near-death.com/science/eviden...-dead.html

" This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced an NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be true. Her case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical (i.e., verified) evidence in NDE research "


"For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants."

(October 14, 2015 at 9:30 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 9:12 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: You spoke of people being brain dead.  This is nothing of the sort.  It's unclear what exactly is happening in near death experiences, but so far, all we have are anecdotes about "strange experiences" with no clear link to anything having to do with death and the afterlife.  Matter of fact, a third of all NDEs occur in people who aren't even remotely near death.  That alone suggests it is some natural, non-metaphysical event unrelated to the afterlife.

People Have NDE's While Brain Dead
http://www.near-death.com/science/eviden...-dead.html

" This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced an NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be true. Her case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical (i.e., verified) evidence in NDE research "


"For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

 

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants."

Still not brain death. The reduced temperature provokes a bodily reaction geared toward preserving critical tissues such as the brain for as long as possible. It is designed to avoid any damage to the brain during the procedure. But you've zeroed in on one of the few so-called veridical NDEs. As noted on Wikipedia, "Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations." Again, it's unclear what is happening in NDEs, and the few with tantalizing details such as this one are underwhelming.

That's not actually brain death. Think of it more as a type of suspended animation.

It's similar to when the body is kept alive during a heart transplant.

If a person is truly brain dead, they're not coming back.

(October 14, 2015 at 9:44 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 9:30 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: People Have NDE's While Brain Dead
http://www.near-death.com/science/eviden...-dead.html

" This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced an NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be true. Her case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical (i.e., verified) evidence in NDE research "


"For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

 

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants."

Still not brain death.  The reduced temperature provokes a bodily reaction geared toward preserving critical tissues such as the brain for as long as possible.  It is designed to avoid any damage to the brain during the procedure.  But you've zeroed in on one of the few so-called veridical NDEs.  As noted on Wikipedia, "Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations."  Again, it's unclear what is happening in NDEs, and the few with tantalizing details such as this one are underwhelming.

how can you say that she wasnt brain dead when all 3 clinical tests reported that she was ? her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. doctors consider that brain dead

" This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. " how is that anything more than a supposition ? people shouldnt just assume that shes just making it all up unless they can substantiate that claim


BeccsThat's not actually brain death.  Think of it more as a type of suspended animation.
[quote pid='1084571' dateline='1444873830']

It's similar to when the body is kept alive during a heart transplant.  

If a person is truly brain dead, they're not coming back.
[/quote]

technically the brain didnt die but  " brain death " is what it is called when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex , there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right ?

(October 14, 2015 at 9:54 pm)jenny1972 Wrote:

(October 14, 2015 at 9:50 pm)Beccs Wrote: That's not actually brain death.  Think of it more as a type of suspended animation.

It's similar to when the body is kept alive during a heart transplant.  

If a person is truly brain dead, they're not coming back.

the brain didnt die but " brain death " is what it is called when there is no brain-wave activity and a "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex , there is  non-function of the brain stem and there is no blood flow to the brain and generalized absence of brain function right ?

No.  Brain death occurs when critical segments of the brain suffer irreversible death of sufficient quantity of cells to negate functioning.  She was put in "suspended animation" to minimize the chance of that happening, and, if the procedure went as hoped, despite ordinary clinical indicators of brain death being positive, little actual cell damage occurred.  

Quote:One of the cases often presented as being a strong challenge to those theorists arguing in favor of non-paranormal accounts of the NDE is that of Pam Reynolds as presented by cardiologist Michael Sabom (1998). In 1991, 35-year-old Reynolds was operated upon by Dr. Robert Spetzler in order to remove a potentially fatal giant basilar artery aneurysm. Standard neurological operating techniques could not be used because of the size and location of the aneurysm and instead a more complex procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest was employed. This involved lowering body temperature to 60 1 F (i.e.,16 1 C), stopping heartbeat and breathing, flattening of brainwaves, and the draining of blood from the head. The aneurysm was then carefully removed, and the patient’s body warmed up, normal heartbeat and circulation restored, and head and other wounds were closed. Reynolds was then allowed to awaken slowly in the recovery room. When she was once again able to speak, she told of a NDE that had apparently occurred while she was unconscious under general anesthetic and low-temperature cardiac arrest.

Reynolds reported that she awoke during the early stages of the operation to the sound of the small pneumatic saw that was being used to open her skull. She then felt as if she was being pulled out through the top of her head and, during the subsequent OBE, she was able to watch the proceedings from above the neurosurgeon’s shoulder. Her account accords very well with those of the medical staff present at the time, including her description of the pneumatic saw and the fact that the cardiac surgeon expressed surprise that the blood vessels in her right groin were too small to handle the large flow of blood needed to feed the cardiopulmonary bypass machine. She reported that after her heart was stopped and the blood drained from her body, she passed through a black vortex and into a realm of light where she met with deceased relatives. These relatives looked after her, provided her with nourishment, and eventually helped her to return to her physical body. She was able to report the music that was being played in the operating theatre at the point of her return.

This case is often presented as one that simply defies all conventional explanations (e.g., Greyson, 2000). Woerlee (2005a, b), an anesthesiologist with many years of clinical experience, has considered this case in detail and remains unconvinced of the need for a paranormal explanation. He points out that it is perfectly possible for patients to regain consciousness during operations because the concentration of sleep-inducing and maintaining drugs may vary. Even though such patients cannot move and feel no pain because of the effects of other administered drugs, they may be perfectly aware of what is going on around them. If their eyes are open, they can actually see what is going on in the operating theatre, but even with eyes closed (Reynolds’ eyes were taped shut) they are likely to be able to internally visualize proceedings fairly accurately on the basis of other sensory inputs. It should be noted that the OBE phase of Reynolds’ NDE took place during the early phase of the operation, before the cardiac bypass apparatus had even been connected to her body.

Greyson (2000), among others, rejects the idea that Reynolds may have been able to hear during the operation because she had small molded speakers inserted in her ears that he claims would block out any other auditory stimulation. These speakers are used to emit 100-db clicks so that auditory evoked potentials (AEPs) recorded from the brainstem can be used to monitor levels of consciousness throughout the operation. However, anyone who has ever worn earphones to listen to music will readily acknowledge that they do not totally block out other sounds from the environment. Sound is transmitted into the auditory pathways not only via the ear itself but also by bone conduction.

Woerlee (2005b) also draws attention to the fact that Reynolds could only give a report of her experience some time after she recovered from the anesthetic as she was still intubated when she regained consciousness. This would provide some opportunity for her to associate and elaborate upon the sensations she had experienced during the operation with her existing knowledge and expectations. The fact that she described the small pneumatic saw used in the operation also does not impress Woerlee. As he points out, the saw sounds like and, to some extent, looks like the pneumatic drills used by dentists. The sound heard by Reynolds when she regained consciousness during the early phase of the operation was unlikely to be interpreted as being a large chain saw or industrial angle cutter even in the unlikely event that the patient might have expected such inappropriate instruments to be used. As Sabom (1998, p. 189) himself acknowledges, ‘‘For some, evidence arising from cases such as Pam’s will continue to suggest some type of out-of-body experience occurring when death is imminent. For others, the inexactness which arises in the evaluation of these cases will be reason enough to dismiss them as dreams, hallucinations, or fantasies.’’

"Near-death experiences in cardiac arrest survivors" ~ Christopher C. French