Quote:advocate dissolution of the EU rather than looking to fix what is, in principle, as solid a concept as the US

Absolutely wrong - The EU, politically, has powers that differ significantly from the American system - The Federal government in the US has powers the EU doesn't have, and vice-versa - I would say that the EU's powers are much reduced in terms of influence compared to the USA's federal government. As for fixing it - That's something I'm still waiting for but I don't see many solutions.



I have an honest question for people who want a federation - How do you think this would work when the tendency is actually for regionalism like what's happening in Catalonia (Spain)? If those people don't even want to be a part of Spain, why should they be a part of a federation? What about Italian separatism and independence movements? Would every country be able to democratically say yes or no? What about countries like Switzerland that are not a part of the EU but find themselves in the middle of EU countries?

(October 15, 2015 at 8:35 am)Dystopia Wrote:

(October 15, 2015 at 8:32 am)abaris Wrote: Yes, patriotism and nationalism are such glorious things to strive for. They gave us all the beauties of the last century. What could possibly be wrong with that?

Because liberalism gave us awesome things as well. How about a middle ground, like civic nationalism that is based on equality, contribution and mutual tolerance and not on race (and other trivial things) while still glorifying country people live in towards a common goal? Everyone is a bit nationalist to some degree, it's not avoidable, Not all nationalism equals being a racist nazi or a totalitarian

Not all nationalism is bad, but over the last few years the trend has been for more and more hard line phrases and propaganda to appear so that now what would have been seen as extreme are now accepted without comment, enough that I have seen some of my friends, nice people who I enjoy the company of, posting hateful anti-immigrant posts without batting an eye. They wouldn't have dreamed of posting these things a few years ago and the increase in nationalism is to blame. I can see no way that in the current climate the UK will stay in the EU after the referendum next year and I fear the consequences.

downbeatplumb Wrote:This is the appropriate response.
But is it how people REALLY feel?

In the UK people like to think the UK is the best and that seems to be mirrored in the US with their Exceptionalism being pushed by Fox etc. What I have found is that people use nationalism as a stick to persecute others.
Down with nationalism I say.

Exactly how I feel DBP. Those who identify as nationalists and patriots in my experience and are also really serious about it are often like this.
Those who don't take it seriously often don't even bother with the label anyway and would only say they were patriotic if asked if they were... that's not the kind of pride for the country that bothers me. It's this kind where people are really serious about it. The actual use of "pride" in this manner doesn't really make sense, there are better words to use really... it's just become a thing to be proud of things when really it's more of an appreciation or respect rather than actual pride for something.

I mean even with children it is complex. If I had children I'd be very proud of everything they did. But even then it would really be about loving and appreciating them and besides that it would be vicarious pride on their behalf. The only other sense I could be proud was the part I played in raising them to be how they were... but I couldn't take full credit at all, they would take most of the credit for their achievements, not me.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:48 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Not all nationalism is bad

Nationalism is basically my dick is bigger than yours. That's primitive, exclusive and ultimately bad.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:51 am)abaris Wrote:

(October 15, 2015 at 8:48 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Not all nationalism is bad

Nationalism is basically my dick is bigger than yours. That's primitive, exclusive and ultimately bad.

Well as has been mentioned it can just be taking an interest in where you live and recognising that that is why you like it. This is probably mild nationalism and not likely to involving mounting invasions in its name.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:54 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Well as has been mentioned it can just be taking an interest in where you live and recognising that that is why you like it.

No, it can't because there's a distinct line between a cultural interest and heritage and waving a flag at every given opportunity. Cultural lines go smack through the middle of many countries. To take the UK for an example, I don't think, the Scotts or Welsh want to be culturally the same as the English. Same goes for most countries obviously. The Germans are an assembly of many cultural groups and heritages.

So, one is nationalism, the other is simply feeling at home in a certain place.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:57 am)abaris Wrote:

(October 15, 2015 at 8:54 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Well as has been mentioned it can just be taking an interest in where you live and recognising that that is why you like it.

No, it can't because there's a distinct line between a cultural interest and heritage and waving a flag at every given opportunity. Cultural lines go smack through the middle of many countries. To take the UK for an example, I don't think, the Scotts or Welsh want to be culturally the same as the English.

So, one is nationalism, the other is simply feeling at home in a certain place.

Hmm, I think I am now on the fence about whether nationalism can be a positive thing. I shall watch the debate with interest.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:35 am)Dystopia Wrote: Everyone is a bit nationalist to some degree, it's not avoidable

Wrong. I'm in no way a nationalist. In fact, I'm a globalist. I advocate the dissolution of all borders and all concepts of 'nation' in favour of a secular, liberal-socialist 'United Earth' model. In terms of Europe, I'm pro-federal and would prefer a 'United States of Europe' to the current model as it would be a step in the right direction: ending the harms that result from political application of tribal principles.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:47 am)Dystopia Wrote: Absolutely wrong - The EU, politically, has powers that differ significantly from the American system - The Federal government in the US has powers the EU doesn't have, and vice-versa - I would say that the EU's powers are much reduced in terms of influence compared to the USA's federal government.

I didn't claim that 'Europe has the same powers as the US', I claimed that the principles on which the EU are founded are as solid a basis for inter-state cooperation as the 'federal' model is for the US. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Quote:As for fixing it - That's something I'm still waiting for but I don't see many solutions.

Remove the corrupt politicians and properly apply the existing principles of democratic representation. Much easier said than done, I know but the solution seems clear to me.

Quote:I have an honest question for people who want a federation - How do you think this would work when the tendency is actually for regionalism like what's happening in Catalonia (Spain)? If those people don't even want to be a part of Spain, why should they be a part of a federation? What about Italian separatism and independence movements?

Each of those movements has a different rationale. Some are rightly unhappy with the way that their 'regional ethnicity' is represented in the national context (a symptom of tribal nationalism, the cure for which is federalism!); others are nothing more than right-wing nutters, yearning for special rights. One could argue that these 'regionalists' may not even oppose federalism if their ethnicity were to be properly represented. One thing is universal, however: they represent a tiny minority of the European population and are not part of a growing 'tendency'. I'm not aware of a single 'regionalist' movement whose basis of existence is opposition to the EU.

Quote:Would every country be able to democratically say yes or no? What about countries like Switzerland that are not a part of the EU but find themselves in the middle of EU countries?

That's a good challenge and one which was true for the regions of the US before it was formed. The answer has to be that each country would have to say 'yes', via public referendum to ensure proper democratic representation of a potential member state. That's what I'd do because anything else would be unfair. In the meantime, the EU is, on paper, a good compromise and if it can have the corruption driven out, it might be a vehicle which demonstrates the value of state cooperation, such that other countries might want to join.

(October 15, 2015 at 8:47 am)Dystopia Wrote: I have an honest question for people who want a federation - How do you think this would work when the tendency is actually for regionalism like what's happening in Catalonia (Spain)? If those people don't even want to be a part of Spain, why should they be a part of a federation? What about Italian separatism and independence movements? Would every country be able to democratically say yes or no? What about countries like Switzerland that are not a part of the EU but find themselves in the middle of EU countries?

Take Scotland. There's a push for independence from the rest of Great Britain, but there's more desire to be part of the EU in Scotland than in other countries in the United Kingdom.

There are clearer advantages to being in the EU, especially as a small country. The advantages of being in the United Kingdom in doubt.