(December 6, 2010 at 4:08 pm)16three-john Wrote:

(December 6, 2010 at 4:02 pm)Minimalist Wrote: "God" is merely the product that religion sells.

but, you see, my relationship with god has nothing to do with religion

Shit...I have to go out right now. I hope you're still around when I get back.

For the meantime, perhaps you might explain how this "relationship" works. Aside from you talking to yourself, that is.

(December 6, 2010 at 4:29 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Shit...I have to go out right now. I hope you're still around when I get back.

For the meantime, perhaps you might explain how this "relationship" works. Aside from you talking to yourself, that is.

So, God created man. Man sinned. Sin comes from the Satan. Since man sins, Satan has power over this world, because we are controlled by sin. God obviously doesn't want us to be controlled by sin. When we die, we either go to heaven, or hell. Heaven is a pretty hard place to get accepted into, especially because to get in, you have to be completely and utterly perfect.

This means that the first time you even thought of calling someone a bad name, you were condemned to spend eternity in hell. Bummer, right? Well, God looked at that, and saw that he needed to change it. God loves each and every one of us, and so he really doesn't want to see any of us go to hell, or live our lives rejecting him. See, humans were created in God's image, but the thing is is that we were given free will.

That's why we sin and God doesn't just stop us, it's our choice. So, because admission to heaven is a little more than impossible, God changed things. He sent Jesus down to earth to teach people about God, and how to live the way we were made to. He then sacrificed himself. since the price of sin is death, and Jesus was absolutely perfect, he payed the price for an infinite number of sins. (its like this: if I sinned 342,834,003 times in my life, but Jesus payed the price for an infinite number of sins, try subtracting that number from infinity. that help?)

So now its all perfect, yeah? He payed the price for all of our sins, so now everyone goes to heaven, right? Not quite :/ If God was to force this free gift of grace onto us, it wouldn't exactly be a gift, more like a rule, or something like that. Also, it would be completely disregarding the fact that humans were made with free will. So what do we do to get this gift? It's as simple as this: Ask! All you have to do is ask God for this gift of eternal life, and he will give it to you! This is the teaching of the bible (the most historically verified and trustworthy piece of history in the world, as well as the words of god). So, as you can probably see, this is something which is completely between you and God! There is no one there telling you how many Hail Mary's to say.

I betcha I got like really off topic there haha, shows what only 5 hours of sleep does to a man haha

(December 6, 2010 at 4:59 pm)16three-john Wrote: That's why we sin and God doesn't just stop us, it's our choice. So, because admission to heaven is a little more than impossible, God changed things. He sent Jesus down to earth to teach people about God, and how to live the way we were made to. He then sacrificed himself. since the price of sin is death, and Jesus was absolutely perfect, he payed the price for an infinite number of sins.

Oh, boy...

Let's start here...

What about people who sinned and died before your godboy was supposedly born? They're just screwed? And what about people who sinned and died without ever knowing about this "Get out of jail free" card? For example, anyone who lived in the Americas pre-1492 could not have possibly known about your "savior" and his "just ask me and you'll get into heaven" deal. So they couldn't have known to ask! Are they screwed as well?

(December 6, 2010 at 6:43 pm)Thor Wrote: Oh, boy...

Let's start here...

What about people who sinned and died before your godboy was supposedly born? They're just screwed? And what about people who sinned and died without ever knowing about this "Get out of jail free" card? For example, anyone who lived in the Americas pre-1492 could not have possibly known about your "savior" and his "just ask me and you'll get into heaven" deal. So they couldn't have known to ask! Are they screwed as well?

I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I know everything, because the fact that I don't know everything is one of the only things I know for sure. And no, they're not 'just screwed'. Their faith in God gained them entry to heaven. As for your question on people who never get the chance to hear about Jesus, I'm not sure either, but this page helped me http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetic...ss188.html (I'm assuming that since you're asking me about my christian beliefs, that it is OK to provide a link to a christian page).

I asked what your "relationship" was with your alleged deity and got a pile of...... "belief" instead. Please note that because you are new I used the word "belief" instead of my more customary "bullshit."

(December 6, 2010 at 9:03 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Please note that because you are new I used the word "belief" instead of my more customary "bullshit."

It's been noted. Brownie points earned. Boy Scout badge received. Now you can speak like an adult.

Don't worry. His "new-ness" is fast wearing off.

(December 6, 2010 at 7:12 pm)16three-john Wrote: [quote='Thor' pid='108518' dateline='1291675430']

Oh, boy...

Let's start here...

What about people who sinned and died before your godboy was supposedly born? They're just screwed? And what about people who sinned and died without ever knowing about this "Get out of jail free" card? For example, anyone who lived in the Americas pre-1492 could not have possibly known about your "savior" and his "just ask me and you'll get into heaven" deal. So they couldn't have known to ask! Are they screwed as well?

Quote:I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I know everything, because the fact that I don't know everything is one of the only things I know for sure. And no, they're not 'just screwed'. Their faith in God gained them entry to heaven.

So, anyone who died before your mythical "savior" came along got a free pass into heaven regardless?

And what about people who lived in areas that worshipped a deity, but it wasn't YOUR deity? Are they all burning in hell? What about all the ancient Egyptians who worshipped the sun? What about all the ancient people that worshipped the moon? Are they all screwed because of their ignorance? What about Neanderthals? What about cavemen?

Quote:As for your question on people who never get the chance to hear about Jesus, I'm not sure either, but this page helped me http://www.behindthebadge.net/apologetic...ss188.html

Yeah, this link is nothing more than the opinion of someone who is obviously trying to reconcile the unjust act of condemning innocent people to an eternity of torment with the idea that the only way to get to heaven is "through Jesus". My favorite part of the article is this: "First there is no doubt that no one gets to heaven without going through Jesus Christ as He stated"



Yeah, "no doubt!". Gee... you tell me I have to believe in "Jesus " to get into heaven. Muslims would tell me I have to believe in the word of Muhammad. Jews don't believe "Jesus" was divine at all. So who's right? Personally, I think you're all full of shit. Unless you have some evidence that demonstrates otherwise. (Hint: the Bible is evidence of nothing.)

---

(December 6, 2010 at 4:59 pm)16three-john Wrote: So, God created man.

And your evidence for this ludicrous claim is....?

Quote:Man sinned. Sin comes from the Satan.

Actually, "sin" is a human concept. And it's by no means universal what constitutes a "sin". Is it a "sin" to enslave another human being? For centuries people had no problem with it. (And your Bible even says it's okay!)

Quote:Since man sins, Satan has power over this world, because we are controlled by sin.

So your supposedly "all powerful" deity can't do anything to stop a troublemaker running around creating problems?

Quote:God obviously doesn't want us to be controlled by sin.

Then why doesn't he do something to stop it?

Quote:When we die, we either go to heaven, or hell.

And your evidence that EITHER of these places are real is....?

Quote:Heaven is a pretty hard place to get accepted into, especially because to get in, you have to be completely and utterly perfect.

What a load of complete bullshit.

Quote:This means that the first time you even thought of calling someone a bad name, you were condemned to spend eternity in hell.

So your deity will send you to eternal pain and torture for calling someone a "butthead" when you were six years old? If so, your deity is an asshole.

Quote:Bummer, right?

More like "incredibly fucking stupid".

Quote:Well, God looked at that, and saw that he needed to change it.

So it wasn't "perfect" to begin with? Your "perfect" deity had to CHANGE SOMETHING!?!? So, he did something WRONG?!?! This would mean that he's not perfect, wouldn't it?

Quote:God loves each and every one of us, and so he really doesn't want to see any of us go to hell, or live our lives rejecting him.

And he shows that "love" by allowing children to die from cancer, become orphans or starve to death.

Quote:See, humans were created in God's image, but the thing is is that we were given free will.

Keep drinking that Kool Aid. Glug. Glug. Glug.

Quote:That's why we sin and God doesn't just stop us, it's our choice. So, because admission to heaven is a little more than impossible, God changed things.

Why would he have to change things if he did things right in the first place?

Quote:He sent Jesus down to earth to teach people about God, and how to live the way we were made to.

Yes, because there wasn't anybody else on the planet teaching people about "God". And if the purpose was to "Teach people", why did "Jesus" only appear in one very small place on the planet? Why didn't he travel to Asia, Scandanavia, the Americas, Australia, etc....? He denied his wisdom to 99.5% of the people on Earth!

Quote:He then sacrificed himself.

Actually, he was (supposedly) executed. How is this a "sacrifice"? If he committed suicide by jumping off a tall structure, THAT would be "sacrificing yourself". If he threw himself in front of a runaway chariot to save others, THAT would be "sacrificing yourself".

Quote:since the price of sin is death, and Jesus was absolutely perfect, he payed the price for an infinite number of sins.

So, ANY sin earns "death"? Stealing an apple to feed your starving family is treated the same as raping and murdering a young girl?

Quote: (its like this: if I sinned 342,834,003 times in my life, but Jesus payed the price for an infinite number of sins, try subtracting that number from infinity. that help?)

I see... so you can commit all manner of debauchery throughout your life and "Jesus" has paid for your sins! You can then get your ticket stamped for entry into heaven! Sweet deal!

Quote:So now its all perfect, yeah?

Yeah, perfectly senseless....

Quote:He payed the price for all of our sins, so now everyone goes to heaven, right? Not quite :/ If God was to force this free gift of grace onto us, it wouldn't exactly be a gift, more like a rule, or something like that.

You really believe this nonsense, huh?

Quote:So what do we do to get this gift? It's as simple as this: Ask! All you have to do is ask God for this gift of eternal life, and he will give it to you!

So, if, just before he committed suicide, Hitler asked this deity for "the gift of eternal life", your deity would have granted it to him?

Quote:This is the teaching of the bible (the most historically verified and trustworthy piece of history in the world, as well as the words of god).

The Bible is "historically verified"?!?!?!?



Complete bullshit! There is no evidence that "Jesus" was a real person! There is no evidence to support the fable of Noah's Ark, Adam and Eve, Samson and Delilah, Moses, etc.... Unless you have some evidence I'm not aware of.

Proof Jesus existed? The writings of Josephus as well as many of the other writings of the time all verify that there was a real man named Jesus Christ, who had a strong following, and a relatively small but devout group of Jews who were loyal to his teachings following his death who continued to cause trouble for the Roman leadership. Also, the burial box of Jesus' brother James has been found to say 'James, brother of Jesus, son of Joseph', and many experts have verified that this is a genuine artifact. (However, there are some who claim it is a forgery. There is an ongoing case to determine its legitimacy)

Before Jesus, not everyone just automatically got into heaven. It was based on their faith in God, like I said.

Egyptians worshipped the sun, yes. Is the sun God? No. I don't really see what your point is here. Like I said, getting to heaven was based on their faith in God, so obviously worshipping the sun and other Gods didn't get them to heaven. Same goes for Muslims, Jews, etc.

As for cavemen, how the hell am I supposed to know? God has all the answers, not me. But there wasn't a different God for back then, and a different God for now. It's the same God, so my guess would be that it was based on their faith too.

What is your evidence that God didn't create man? Obviously I'm going to say that my main evidence for God creating man is the bible.

If God was to stop every bad thing that is going to happen in the world, we wouldn't have free will.

Why doesn't God stop us being controlled by sin? He does. Again, though, its due to free will that he doesn't force us to stop sinning. If you really have faith in God and realise that without Him, we are practically powerless, He will come into your life and help you live your life better. (I have experienced this first-hand, but I know you're not going to credit that as meaning anything).

Again, my evidence for heaven and hell are obviously the bible.

Why do you think that the fact that to get to heaven you have to be perfect is bullshit? Or is it that you are just again saying that the existence of heaven is bullshit? Its unclear to me what you meant.

God doesn't send people to hell. He gives them the choice to come to heaven. Consider this: A man is waiting for a bus in a piece of shit town. The bus comes along, and the driver says 'hop in, its free'. The man decides to stay in the piece of shit town. Did the bus driver force him to stay there?

About the calling someone a butthead, its back to the point that getting to heaven requires perfection.

When God made man, he gave them free will. They decided to sin. God did not make man sinful, man chose (because of free will) to sin.

Children dying and people starving are just evidence of how this world is messed up. How about this: A man has a big dinner at his house. He invites many different people to eat with him. The food is served at one end of the table, and the people at that end eat all of the food. They do this course after course, eating the food that was enough to feed the whole table. At the end of the dinner, the people at the other end of the table say to the full people that they didn't get any food. The full people then complain to the host that not enough food was given, and that he is a bad host.
I would argue that this is very similar to what people do when they dismiss God because people are starving. They are just blaming the host for something which is not his fault, it's ours.

God chose the Jews to be his chosen people (biblical time Jews, not modern days Jews. There is a difference). He sent Jesus to them, and called them to spread the Good News.

A sin is a sin. We are all imperfect, and don't deserve to go to heaven. Since we are talking about Biblical Christianity's views, if you want to understand it, I would recommend reading Romans 3. Here's a link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm...&t=NIV#top

If you don't believe that the bible is historically verified, and dismiss my evidence for its reliability, then please provide evidence for the bible being fake or not true, etc.

P.S. The Word of God has been the same for over 2000 years. Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and many other things that are now proven to be wrong. There have been many different arguments about the bible's validity, but none of them have ever disproved it. Most even turn out helping the bible's case. Science will continue to grow and change, and the only real truth in this world is God.

(December 7, 2010 at 1:17 pm)16three-john Wrote: Egyptians worshipped the sun, yes. Is the sun God? No.

The Ancient Egyptians worshiped a pantheon of gods, Ra (the sun god) was but one.

Quote:I don't really see what your point is here. Like I said, getting to heaven was based on their faith in God, so obviously worshiping the sun and other Gods didn't get them to heaven. Same goes for Muslims, Jews, etc.

Of course not, they went to the fields of Aaru, Duat, or they experienced a second death when their hearts were devoured by Ammit. No more ridiculous than most proposed afterlives.

Quote:When God made man, he gave them free will. They decided to sin. God did not make man sinful, man chose (because of free will) to sin.

Quote:If you don't believe that the bible is historically verified, and dismiss my evidence for its reliability, then please provide evidence for the bible being fake or not true, etc.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Quote:P.S. The Word of God has been the same for over 2000 years. Scientists used to think that the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and many other things that are now proven to be wrong.

Really? Because the Bible states the Earth is flat, the sun revolves around the Earth, and the moon is a light, among other absurdities:

Isaiah 11:12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Psalm 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Job 9:6 He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble.
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Ecclesiastes 1:5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.

Quote:There have been many different arguments about the bible's validity, but none of them have ever disproved it.