(October 20, 2015 at 1:22 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: In this context, clearly "the Messiah" and "Jesus" are separate individuals. What exactly are you arguing here?

And there's more than that, too. So much so that some Jews speculated that there must be two messiahs to fulfill all the prophecies: messiab ben David, the triumphant messiah; and messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah. As it turns out, it's not two messiahs, with one advent each. It's one messiah, with two advents. Remember, the Bible doesn't end with the gospels. The unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the end, as described in the OT and in Revelation.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:15 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(October 19, 2015 at 3:58 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: his jewish audience before him assumed that he was saying that he was I AM and they did not have the 20 20 benefit of hindsight all they knew was what he was saying right then and judging him on the things he was saying right then [...]

They obviously knew of Abraham, and presumably Moses as well. Do you mean to say that they didn't have the hindsight to interpret what Jesus was saying in light of Exodus? They were, after all, in a temple.

no i mean they were not aware of everything jesus said to his followers and how he explained that he was not God.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:24 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: I disagree with the claim that the Bible says Jesus was not also God, since there are obviously passages that make the claim. I also pointed out that there is not one consistent Jesus presented in the NT and that Christians conflate the different sources to suit their purposes and only feel justified in doing so because each of the NT books has the stamp of orthodox approval. Lacking that, and presented with these books as the separate accounts they were before the NT was compiled and voted on, no honest reader would be able to conflate the accounts they way believers do.

And I pointed out that the Christian spin on the prophesies remains disputed by the Jews to this day.

IOW, you agreed with me on the topic of this thread, and then threw up some red herrings cause you don't like agreeing with a Christian and leaving it at that.

(October 20, 2015 at 12:47 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 11:50 am)jenny1972 Wrote: i am going to post a thread about this on christian forums website i wonder what they will say about it there im just going to very politely ask where it comes from since it did not come from jesus and address the main points and verses in my OP over there

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yes i am going to start a thread on christian forums although there are christians here .....  yes jesus did have a relationship with God and was inspired by God but does distinguish that he was not God despite knowing God and despite Gods inspiration being in his mind "The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

Rather, Jesus distinguished that he was not the Father. The passage above is a clear claim to equality with the Father. As the Son, Jesus humbled Himself in His earthly ministry.

how does saying " the father who dwells in me " (he already said that God is the father to all of us humans) indicate that he thought that he was God ? he prayed to God so he clearly realized that he was not God

John 20:16-18 :
16 Jesus saith unto her,Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 1:22 pm)houseofcantor Wrote: In this context, clearly "the Messiah" and "Jesus" are separate individuals. What exactly are you arguing here?

And there's more than that, too. So much so that some Jews speculated that there must be two messiahs to fulfill all the prophecies: messiab ben David, the triumphant messiah; and messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah. As it turns out, it's not two messiahs, with one advent each. It's one messiah, with two advents. Remember, the Bible doesn't end with the gospels. The unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the end, as described in the OT and in Revelation.

Have to disagree with you about Revelation. That's the story of a cat tripping balls in a cave having a psychotic episode about the events circa 400 C.E. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything and should never been included in canon.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:36 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: how does saying " the father who dwells in me " (he already said that God is the father to all of us humans)

Where did he say that? In John 8:44 he explicitly says, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

Quote:indicate that he thought that he was God ?

It doesn't. It's things like I and the Father are one, You've seen me, so you've seen the Father, the I Am's, and the claims to be the messiah that indicate that he thought that he was God.

Quote:he prayed to God so he clearly realized that he was not God

He prayed to the Father, so he clearly realized that he was not the Father.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:40 pm)houseofcantor Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm)alpha male Wrote: And there's more than that, too. So much so that some Jews speculated that there must be two messiahs to fulfill all the prophecies: messiab ben David, the triumphant messiah; and messiah ben Joseph, the suffering messiah. As it turns out, it's not two messiahs, with one advent each. It's one messiah, with two advents. Remember, the Bible doesn't end with the gospels. The unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the end, as described in the OT and in Revelation.

Have to disagree with you about Revelation. That's the story of a cat tripping balls in a cave having a psychotic episode about the events circa 400 C.E. It doesn't really have anything to do with anything and should never been included in canon.

Doesn't matter, as Jesus' return is also in the gospels and the epistles.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm)alpha male Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 1:36 pm)jenny1972 Wrote: how does saying " the father who dwells in me " (he already said that God is the father to all of us humans)

Where did he say that? In John 8:44 he explicitly says, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

Quote:indicate that he thought that he was God ?

It doesn't. It's things like I and the Father are one, You've seen me, so you've seen the Father, the I Am's, and the claims to be the messiah that indicate that he thought that he was God.

Quote:he prayed to God so he clearly realized that he was not God

He prayed to the Father, so he clearly realized that he was not the Father.

And yet,according to you, Isaiah 9 calls Jesus Everlasting Father.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:30 pm)alpha male Wrote: The unfulfilled prophecies will be fulfilled in the end, as described in the OT and in Revelation.

Been a very long time since they were first written.

(October 20, 2015 at 1:49 pm)Irrational Wrote:

(October 20, 2015 at 1:42 pm)alpha male Wrote: Where did he say that? In John 8:44 he explicitly says, "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."
It doesn't. It's things like I and the Father are one, You've seen me, so you've seen the Father, the I Am's, and the claims to be the messiah that indicate that he thought that he was God.

He prayed to the Father, so he clearly realized that he was not the Father.

And yet,according to you, Isaiah 9 calls Jesus Everlasting Father.

Yep, and Jesus said that if you've seen him, you've seen the Father. It's a bit of a paradox. Depending opn the circumstances, Jesus emphasized either his oneness with the Father or his distinction as the Son.