(November 20, 2015 at 1:03 pm)Lek Wrote:

(November 16, 2015 at 2:22 am)robvalue Wrote: Lek: Here's the problem. The bible says you should kill two men who have sex. So unless you advocate executing them, you are not following the bible.

I doubt you follow hardly any of the bible. Which is a very good thing. It's horrific.

This is also in the Old Testament, which you so often say doesn't need to be followed anymore. Which is it?

The old testament law was given to the Israelites and was meant was for them until the coming of Jesus who freed us from the law.  Christians were never under the old testament law.  It had its purpose for the Israelites, but is no longer in effect for anyone.  So, in other words, the Israelites of the old testament were required to follow those instructions which, I believe, were put in place to keep them separate from the rest of the world.  Give me a specific instance of how I don't follow the bible and I'll respond.  Also, if you can find a verse that tells us to hate homosexuals, show me that too.

Jesus said that he had been sent only to the Jews.  The golden cube called New Jerusalem doesn't have a gate for the gentiles to enter.  So why do you think Jesus is going to do anything for you?

(November 21, 2015 at 10:43 pm)Lek Wrote:

(November 20, 2015 at 5:05 pm)robvalue Wrote: I appreciate the answer but I can't understand your mode of thought at all I'm afraid. I'll have to give up. I hope you wouldn't actually want to block secular same sex marriages for non-Christians. If you would, I am shocked that you think one particular religion should get to dictate how the government handles things.

I do not think that one particular religion should dictate how the government handles things.

I've stated this more than once in this forum.  I am not opposed to civil unions in the public sector that provide the same rights and privileges under the law as heterosexual marriage does.  I consider marriage a sacred institution, which has deep meaning to me, and I resent government being allowed to change the definition of marriage, as it has been defined since the establishment of this nation.  It's as if the government declares that Christmas is now going to be the celebration of Secularist Day, but we're still going to call it Christmas.  In that case, they have redefined Christmas.  I don't mind someone celebrating Secularist Day, but don't say that is now what Christmas means.

I think that homosexual relations are immoral.  I also think that heterosexual relations outside of marriage are immoral.  I think that divorce for convenience is immoral.  I think that drunkenness is immoral.  I don't hate people who do these things, but I am not in favor of them doing them.  It really frustrates me that people cannot grasp what I am trying to convey.  Should people hate me because they believe that some of my moral stances are actually immoral?  I don't think they should.  They are entitled to oppose my actions and beliefs, but they shouldn't hate me and I shouldn't hate them.

So are you against Interracial Marriage? You would have to be to be consistent. 

Yeah, so as I said, Lek is against secular same sex marriage for non Christians. Clearly you want it to be known that there's something inferior about homosexuals that needs pointing out with different labels.

Appeals to "how things have always been" are awful. Why did we get rid of slavery? As SF says, why did we get rid of race restrictions? Why did we make marital rape a thing?

Because we want to improve things for everyone. If you just personally dislike the idea, that's one thing. But if you'd actually stand in the way of it, if you had the power, then you're a bigot hiding behind tradition and religion. A minute ago it was what the bible says, now it's tradition. Neither are good arguments.

Marriage is not "sacred", marriage is a secular contract that has nothing to do with religion. The religious ceremony is optional, and it is not the actual marriage. There is in fact no need to also have it be a secular marriage. The fact that some people want it to be, to get the benefits, yet would deny others based on their personal discomfort, is disgusting to me. No one is making churches host same sex marriages. The secular marriage is nothing at all to do with religion, and certainly not just your religion. Saying, "You can do it but you can't call it marriage" is really insulting. I'm surprised you can't see that.

I realized something... I want to ask such homophobes this question, "Would you harbour the same beliefs about wanting gays to have less rights if it wasn't for your religious convictions?"

Neither answer is very favourable, is it?

(November 22, 2015 at 12:39 pm)Shining_Finger Wrote: So are you against Interracial Marriage? You would have to be to be consistent. 

I see where you're going... Except marriage had been defined long before America had anything to say about it.

(November 21, 2015 at 11:53 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Jesus said that he had been sent only to the Jews.  The golden cube called New Jerusalem doesn't have a gate for the gentiles to enter.  So why do you think Jesus is going to do anything for you?

Jesus did come to the Jews, but his mission was to save all people. This mission was handed on the his disciples to carry out to the rest of the world.

1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, and He predicted that His flock would be greatly expanded: “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

Romans 1:16English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

As for the image of the gate in the new Jerusalem, all believers are part of the new Israel:

Romans 9:6-8English Standard Version (ESV)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

(November 22, 2015 at 12:50 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yeah, so as I said, Lek is against secular same sex marriage for non Christians. Clearly you want it to be known that there's something inferior about homosexuals that needs pointing out with different labels.

Appeals to "how things have always been" are awful. Why did we get rid of slavery? As SF says, why did we get rid of race restrictions? Why did we make marital rape a thing?

Because we want to improve things for everyone. If you just personally dislike the idea, that's one thing. But if you'd actually stand in the way of it, if you had the power, then you're a bigot hiding behind tradition and religion. A minute ago it was what the bible says, now it's tradition. Neither are good arguments.

Marriage is not "sacred", marriage is a secular contract that has nothing to do with religion. The religious ceremony is optional, and it is not the actual marriage. There is in fact no need to also have it be a secular marriage. The fact that some people want it to be, to get the benefits, yet would deny others based on their personal discomfort, is disgusting to me. No one is making churches host same sex marriages. The secular marriage is nothing at all to do with religion, and certainly not just your religion. Saying, "You can do it but you can't call it marriage" is really insulting. I'm surprised you can't see that.

I realized something... I want to ask such homophobes this question, "Would you harbour the same beliefs about wanting gays to have less rights if it wasn't for your religious convictions?"

Neither answer is very favourable, is it?

But when it's all said and done Rob, I am in favor of equal rights under the law for all citizens.

(November 22, 2015 at 1:26 pm)Lek Wrote:

(November 21, 2015 at 11:53 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: Jesus said that he had been sent only to the Jews.  The golden cube called New Jerusalem doesn't have a gate for the gentiles to enter.  So why do you think Jesus is going to do anything for you?

Jesus did come to the Jews, but his mission was to save all people.  This mission was handed on the his disciples to carry out to the rest of the world.

1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, and He predicted that His flock would be greatly expanded: “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

Romans 1:16English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

As for the image of the gate in the new Jerusalem, all believers are part of the new Israel:

Romans 9:6-8English Standard Version (ESV)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

So the John character must have been more powerful than the Jesus character because he changed Jesus' self-stated mission.  

Since you are a believer what tribe did you join so that you can pass through one of the twelve gates?

(November 23, 2015 at 12:51 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: So the John character must have been more powerful than the Jesus character because he changed Jesus' self-stated mission.  

Since you are a believer what tribe did you join so that you can pass through one of the twelve gates?

Jesus speaking..

Quote:Mark 16:15
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Also

Quote:Joel 2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Quote:Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The gospel went to the Jews FIRST, no where is it stated it is for the Jews only.

Also you keep referring to new Jerusalem being a golden cube, how do you figure the city is shaped like a cube?

(November 23, 2015 at 12:51 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 1:26 pm)Lek Wrote: Jesus did come to the Jews, but his mission was to save all people.  This mission was handed on the his disciples to carry out to the rest of the world.

1 John 2:2 (ESV)
2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus said He was the Good Shepherd, and He predicted that His flock would be greatly expanded: “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd” (John 10:16).

Romans 1:16English Standard Version (ESV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

As for the image of the gate in the new Jerusalem, all believers are part of the new Israel:

Romans 9:6-8English Standard Version (ESV)
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

So the John character must have been more powerful than the Jesus character because he changed Jesus' self-stated mission.  

Since you are a believer what tribe did you join so that you can pass through one of the twelve gates?

I'm a member of the body of Christ, which is Israel. You're trying to take verses from an apocalyptic book, that is written entirely in symbolic language, as if the language is literal. You are also not looking at the bible as a whole.

"4 When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 6 This mystery is[a] that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." Ephesians 3

(November 22, 2015 at 1:01 pm)Huggy74 Wrote:

(November 22, 2015 at 12:39 pm)Shining_Finger Wrote: So are you against Interracial Marriage? You would have to be to be consistent. 

I see where you're going... Except marriage had been defined long before America had anything to say about it.

And with 40 year old Men marrying 13 year old girls to boot.