(November 25, 2015 at 12:11 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: It's probably because you seem to carry a lot of hate toward believers.  It doesn't make you a "bigot".  Wrong word.  "Hater" maybe?

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGEEEEEE!

YES I DO HATE.......But please, put that word in proper context.

My mom hates it when I don't shave. I hate it when she complains about me not shaving. 

On a global scale I will ALWAYS value human rights. I can value the likes of Malala, and Martin Luther King Jr but still hate that my species still feels the need to cling to such old claims. I do hate the fact that humans lack the introspection to question what they hold to be true.

If I hated believers the way some accuse me of, I would hate my Catholic mother. I love her, but even she knows I hate the claim that a magic cracker will save her soul.

(November 25, 2015 at 12:19 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(November 25, 2015 at 12:11 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: It's probably because you seem to carry a lot of hate toward believers.  It doesn't make you a "bigot".  Wrong word.  "Hater" maybe?

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGEEEEEE!

YES I DO HATE.......But please, put that word in proper context.

My mom hates it when I don't shave. I hate it when she complains about me not shaving. 

On a global scale I will ALWAYS value human rights. I can value the likes of Malala, and Martin Luther King Jr but still hate that my species still feels the need to cling to such old claims. I do hate the fact that humans lack the introspection to question what they hold to be true.

If I hated believers the way some accuse me of, I would hate my Catholic mother. I love her, but even she knows I hate the claim that a magic cracker will save her soul.

Aren't you ever afraid that going around with such strong biases regarding what every other human being should believe might prevent you from expanding your own understanding?  That people believe in gods and have for as far back as we can imagine our ancestors being what we would call human is thought provoking.  Why should it be?  What about the way the mind works supports that.  Now I don't ask because I wonder if there is some literal god critter out there.  Not at all. But I want to understand the world (including ourselves) as I find it - not as I think it should be.

I'll just say no and keep it at that.

(November 25, 2015 at 12:49 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote:

(November 25, 2015 at 12:19 pm)Brian37 Wrote: ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGEEEEEE!

YES I DO HATE.......But please, put that word in proper context.

My mom hates it when I don't shave. I hate it when she complains about me not shaving. 

On a global scale I will ALWAYS value human rights. I can value the likes of Malala, and Martin Luther King Jr but still hate that my species still feels the need to cling to such old claims. I do hate the fact that humans lack the introspection to question what they hold to be true.

If I hated believers the way some accuse me of, I would hate my Catholic mother. I love her, but even she knows I hate the claim that a magic cracker will save her soul.

Aren't you ever afraid that going around with such strong biases regarding what every other human being should believe might prevent you from expanding your own understanding?  That people believe in gods and have for as far back as we can imagine our ancestors being what we would call human is thought provoking.  Why should it be?  What about the way the mind works supports that.  Now I don't ask because I wonder if there is some literal god critter out there.  Not at all.  But I want to understand the world (including ourselves) as I find it - not as I think it should be.

NO

"Understanding" what?

People like what they believe? Yea, I like ABBA. Other people like other music.

"Understanding" what?

Religion is complex......all religions are complex, but none of them are universal.

"Understanding" what?

We are all the same species? I think far too many humans get stuck in their own circles and religion far too much allows them to cling to the past and get stuck in their own circles.

Being open minded does not have to include clinging to the past.

(November 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Being open minded does not have to include clinging to the past.

Indeed not. But some things will not change - short of altering our genetic code and rewiring the brain.

We have seen that there is a fair range of flexibility regarding religion adherence. It's really high in middle eastern countries and very low in the UK and Nordic countries. So outside influence can make a difference there. When you get to more basic stuff though - like the human mind's tendency to fill in voids with patterns that aren't there - we're pretty much stuck with that. The best we can do is be aware of it and compensate for it - like we do with peer review when doing science. But sometimes these quirks of our minds come into play outside of science where they are not corrected for. That gives us bad shit like religion but it also generates things like literature, music, philosophy and culture. I question whether any of those latter things could exist if it were not for those "flaws" in the way our brains are wired. Trying to compensate for our brain wiring there comes across as misplaced and a little crazy.

Everyone has some bigotries, it's human nature. If you (Brian37) are a bigot, I find you a comparatively mild and enlightened one - more at not suffering fools gladly than severely bigoted.

My own bigotries run towards the English. I don't hate English people, but I always suspect that they mean me ill.

Boru

Yes. But then so am I.

(November 25, 2015 at 3:07 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:

(November 25, 2015 at 1:17 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Being open minded does not have to include clinging to the past.

Indeed not. But some things will not change - short of altering our genetic code and rewiring the brain.

We have seen that there is a fair range of flexibility regarding religion adherence. It's really high in middle eastern countries and very low in the UK and Nordic countries. So outside influence can make a difference there. When you get to more basic stuff though - like the human mind's tendency to fill in voids with patterns that aren't there - we're pretty much stuck with that. The best we can do is be aware of it and compensate for it - like we do with peer review when doing science. But sometimes these quirks of our minds come into play outside of science where they are not corrected for. That gives us bad shit like religion but it also generates things like literature, music, philosophy and culture. I question whether any of those latter things could exist if it were not for those "flaws" in the way our brains are wired. Trying to compensate for our brain wiring there comes across as misplaced and a little crazy.

Not seeking a utopia, just a priority shift in my fellow humans. Utopias are what the right seek in domination, but utopias are also what the left seek in political correctness out of a well intended but false sense of fairness. 

Yes some things will NOT change, like our species ability to be cruel or compassionate. What religion does is take what our natural evolution does, and twists those behaviors into a comic book explanation of good vs evil. Since you cannot rid the world by force of any religion, without becoming a monster yourself, you can seek to shift priorities away from tribalism and to our common existence.

(November 25, 2015 at 3:25 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Everyone has some bigotries, it's human nature.  If you (Brian37) are a bigot, I find you a comparatively mild and enlightened one - more at not suffering fools gladly than severely bigoted.

My own bigotries run towards the English.  I don't hate English people, but I always suspect that they mean me ill.

Boru

Don't confuse personal bias with bigotry. Yes I have my bias. But as far as understanding and accepting that even my enemies who literally want to kill me, are still also human beings. Sagan's Pale Blue Dot speech even conveys that idea. Friend and foe alike in the entirety of of our species existence have not lived forever and no one living today will live forever. Borders come and go, and our species will also go extinct despite winners or losers. Once you face that, it is quite easy to understand that this is all humanity has and we are in this together. 

There are people who will always wish you ill, even within your own label. What is important if we want a more civil planet, is to insist you don't act out on it physically.

I'm not confusing bigotry with personal bias, or with anything else. Don't presume to lecture me on what words mean.

Boru