(November 25, 2015 at 7:15 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(November 25, 2015 at 7:08 am)RaphielDrake Wrote: You're right. Human beings are the pinnacle of Darwinian evolution. Consequently we are vicious, hypocritical and self-obsessed.
The species fits the definition of evil. That being said; we're just the guys who came first in the race for dominance. You think my dog actually loves me? I feed him, I water him. I am a resource to him. If I die he is eating my corpse. Every aspect of him has evolved to milk my need for affection dry so that he may survive. Every species is playing the same game ultimately, we're just the best at it. I eat the flesh of pigs, a species more intelligent than dogs, and I feel bad knowing it but you know what? We fucking won. If that species had won it would be doing exactly the same thing. So yeah, we're the best monsters in a world that gives rise to the most ruthless. Its not a point of pride, its not a point of shame, it simply is.

As for suicide, I've thought about that at length. I've considered all the arguments for and against and this is my conclusion; 
If the amount of pain endured exceeds the value and quality of the life lived then its justified.
No human being is so unique that he can't be easily replaced by one of the other billions of slightly different variations of him/her scattered all over the world. Noone is indispensable. Even from purely a genetic standpoint there are many, many people who would share my genome not exactly but close enough that it shouldn't matter. If I could do it then I would. I can't. So the plan is that I'm going to help in as many dangerous situations as I can and if I die then I die. Only instead of my family going "boo-hoo, how could he do this?" they would at least be able to take solace in the fact I died doing a "selfless" thing. The person I was will be gone, replaced by the idea of someone better that never existed. Thats a gift. If I don't die then I've helped others as an unintentional side-effect and I just go in for round 2. Knowing my luck I'd still be around for round 200.
Maybe I could volunteer in cambodia or africa or something? So far every trip to places like that where I risk my neck requires an extortionate amount of money. Which is hilarious. I've been looking for a UK equivalent of the peace corp but got nothing. If anyone knows of places like that then I'm all ears.
Anyway, thats my take on it.

You could always prowl around in the night looking to fight crime. With the level of gun control in the UK, you'd probably last a whole lot longer than somebody doing the same thing in the US.

You silly billy.

I keep trying to elaborate on this, but I find myself so frustrated that I don't even know where to begin.

(November 25, 2015 at 7:00 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: I keep trying to elaborate on this, but I find myself so frustrated that I don't even know where to begin.

I don't want to be insulting, but it is not normal to feel frustrated all the time.  Have you considered talking to someone outside an internet forum. . . like a doctor?  It's suprising how often little hiccups in brain chemistry get interpreted by a person as a broken world, when a couple pills a day can bring things into a nicer focus.

(November 25, 2015 at 7:08 am)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(November 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: I think I'm having an existential crisis, and I have been for years, and it's getting out of hand. I'm becoming resentful, not healthy.

You're right. Human beings are the pinnacle of Darwinian evolution. Consequently we are vicious, hypocritical and self-obsessed.
The species fits the definition of evil. That being said; we're just the guys who came first in the race for dominance. You think my dog actually loves me? I feed him, I water him. I am a resource to him. If I die he is eating my corpse. Every aspect of him has evolved to milk my need for affection dry so that he may survive. Every species is playing the same game ultimately, we're just the best at it. I eat the flesh of pigs, a species more intelligent than dogs, and I feel bad knowing it but you know what? We fucking won. If that species had won it would be doing exactly the same thing. So yeah, we're the best monsters in a world that gives rise to the most ruthless. Its not a point of pride, its not a point of shame, it simply is.

As for suicide, I've thought about that at length. I've considered all the arguments for and against and this is my conclusion; 
If the amount of pain endured exceeds the value and quality of the life lived then its justified.
No human being is so unique that he can't be easily replaced by one of the other billions of slightly different variations of him/her scattered all over the world. Noone is indispensable. Even from purely a genetic standpoint there are many, many people who would share my genome not exactly but close enough that it shouldn't matter. If I could do it then I would. I can't. So the plan is that I'm going to help in as many dangerous situations as I can and if I die then I die. Only instead of my family going "boo-hoo, how could he do this?" they would at least be able to take solace in the fact I died doing a "selfless" thing. The person I was will be gone, replaced by the idea of someone better that never existed. Thats a gift. If I don't die then I've helped others as an unintentional side-effect and I just go in for round 2. Knowing my luck I'd still be around for round 200.
Maybe I could volunteer in cambodia or africa or something? So far every trip to places like that where I risk my neck requires an extortionate amount of money. Which is hilarious. I've been looking for a UK equivalent of the peace corp but got nothing. If anyone knows of places like that then I'm all ears.
Anyway, thats my take on it.

Based upon news events from around the world, get a bunch of cash and walk around some bad areas with it sticking out of your pockets.  Sooner or later a bad guy will whack you upside the head and take it.  Problem solved.  

Most people die long before they want to.  There's no reason to rush it unless you're surrounded by zombies and they're coming through the door.

(November 25, 2015 at 11:12 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 25, 2015 at 7:00 pm)ApeNotKillApe Wrote: I keep trying to elaborate on this, but I find myself so frustrated that I don't even know where to begin.

I don't want to be insulting, but it is not normal to feel frustrated all the time.  Have you considered talking to someone outside an internet forum. . . like a doctor?  It's suprising how often little hiccups in brain chemistry get interpreted by a person as a broken world, when a couple pills a day can bring things into a nicer focus.

I agree. However logical your conclusions may seem, the fact that it's getting to you this much is probably an indication that you could benefit from some form of therapy or counselling. I've mentally been where you are right now, judging by what you've told us. Getting professional help made a massive difference to me. You've nothing to lose by trying it, however pointless it may seem. Believe me, it seems pointless when I started it.

(November 25, 2015 at 3:36 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 24, 2015 at 7:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I believe suicide is immoral.

Aside from Catholic doctrine, do you have a reason for this belief?

If the understanding that life is sacred is only a Catholic doctrine, then no.

(November 27, 2015 at 4:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(November 25, 2015 at 3:36 am)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Aside from Catholic doctrine, do you have a reason for this belief?

If the understanding that life is sacred is only a Catholic doctrine, then no.

Invalid premise leading your answer. The belief is clearly not solely a Catholic tenet, rendering your answer murky.

(November 27, 2015 at 5:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 27, 2015 at 4:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If the understanding that life is sacred is only a Catholic doctrine, then no.

Invalid premise leading your answer. The belief is clearly not solely a Catholic tenet, rendering your answer murky.

Then the answer would be yes.

(November 27, 2015 at 5:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:

(November 27, 2015 at 4:43 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: If the understanding that life is sacred is only a Catholic doctrine, then no.

Invalid premise leading your answer. The belief is clearly not solely a Catholic tenet, rendering your answer murky.

I don't think so.  She's speaking as a Catholic, and doesn't have in that context to address other ways at arriving at moral ideas.  Her reason for being against suicide is the religious idea that life is sacred, which implies a question: IS the idea of sacred life only a religious idea?

I'd argue (no longer against your brief comment, obviously) that perhaps it is our residual Christian heritage which makes some Western atheists see life as intrinsically valuable.  Certainly, some past cultures didn't see it that way; my understanding is that suicide drugs like hemlock extracts were carried in vials by many in Roman times, and available to all in the form of willing apothecaries in Shakespeare's time, for example.

It's not so much the value of life that must be preserved,as that the pain of one's death to others that must be avoided.  Suicide is selfish, because it relieves one's own pain at the cost of multiplying it in the ongoing suffering of perhaps many others.  In fact, I think some of those committing suicide probably know and hope for this-- they say, "They never listened to me.  Now let them feel the consequence of their neglect."

Whether this is moral depends on the circumstances, but I think in almost all cases, a suicide leaves behind more victim suffering than righteous retribution, and that the sum balance of this suffering will be greater than that that was experienced by the self-killer, and that the self-killer is therefore acting immorally-- based on the moral principle of the greater good/lesser evil, at least.

(November 27, 2015 at 9:14 pm)bennyboy Wrote:

(November 27, 2015 at 5:12 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Invalid premise leading your answer. The belief is clearly not solely a Catholic tenet, rendering your answer murky.

I don't think so.  She's speaking as a Catholic, and doesn't have in that context to address other ways at arriving at moral ideas.  Her reason for being against suicide is the religious idea that life is sacred, which implies a question: IS the idea of sacred life only a religious idea?

I'd argue (no longer against your brief comment, obviously) that perhaps it is our residual Christian heritage which makes some Western atheists see life as intrinsically valuable.  Certainly, some past cultures didn't see it that way; my understanding is that suicide drugs like hemlock extracts were carried in vials by many in Roman times, and available to all in the form of willing apothecaries in Shakespeare's time, for example.

It's not so much the value of life that must be preserved,as that the pain of one's death to others that must be avoided.  Suicide is selfish, because it relieves one's own pain at the cost of multiplying it in the ongoing suffering of perhaps many others.  In fact, I think some of those committing suicide probably know and hope for this-- they say, "They never listened to me.  Now let them feel the consequence of their neglect."

Whether this is moral depends on the circumstances, but I think in almost all cases, a suicide leaves behind more victim suffering than righteous retribution, and that the sum balance of this suffering will be greater than that that was experienced by the self-killer, and that the self-killer is therefore acting immorally-- based on the moral principle of the greater good/lesser evil, at least.

I get what you're saying. The point of my reply is that while her faith may have been how she arrived at her opinion, that mountain has several different roads leading up it. Indeed, she could well come to her belief based on more than just her faith. I don't think it's necessarily a binary matter.