(December 3, 2015 at 1:58 pm)popeyespappy Wrote:

(December 3, 2015 at 1:37 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: I already have my own opinion on this subject, I don't feel uncertain about it either. I'll quote myself from half an hour ago.

You know what they say about everyone having an opinion. Meanwhile here is fairly simple explanation of why what you are calling objective morality is really subjective.

Quote:Many attempts at establishing an objective morality try to argue from considerations of human well-being. OK, but who decided that human well-being is what is important? We did! This whole enterprise starts with a subjective leap. Yes, human well-being is what morality is all about but human well-being is all about human feelings and preferences, and is thus subjective.

https://coelsblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/...-nonsense/

Human morality is about feelings and preferences? Well fuck me in the ass, that's just nonsense.

(December 3, 2015 at 10:20 am)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: That doesn't make him a good person because he's doing what people want him to do.

A good person, a good leader, and a good politician...

Are not the same things. Some great leaders are terrible people, some great politicians are terrible leaders, some great people are right shite politicians...

I don't care whether Putin is a good person or not. I wasn't confronted with someone who asked how Putin could be a good person. I saw someone ask how Putin could be called a good leader. I focused on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NitBpJaom5k

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(December 3, 2015 at 1:13 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: Being a "good leader" and a "good person" are two different things.

Oh and morality is subjective, not objective. What you or we consider immoral today might have been considered moral throughout history and even today in other cultures. But that is a different issue.

Dangit, Magi! TT___Tt Beating me to everything you are. Gaaahhhh.

Uggggggggggh. How can you call someone a good leader who makes people's lives a living hell?

(December 3, 2015 at 2:06 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: Human morality is about feelings and preferences? Well fuck me in the ass, that's just nonsense.

Curiosity. How many 'moral' sociopaths do you know of? Kinda an alien concept without feelings, really. How is a person to judge what's good from what's bad except on mathematically justified (Machiavellian) lines, without feeling?

Your precious "human morality" is the farce of feelings... if you feel that mathematical absolutism devoid of concerns for whether or not one is 'hurting people' or otherwise making their experiences with life the lesser... is immoral.

We are quite 'morally' capable of doing anything we understand to be 'correct', 'right', or otherwise feel is 'generally 'good''... entirely upon whether or not we feel it is. Other people, who feel otherwise, will call this person 'immoral'... and other people, who feel likewise, will call this person 'moral'.

....

Guess the only thing that really matters... morally... is that we do right by our selves

(December 3, 2015 at 5:40 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: Uggggggggggh. How can you call someone a good leader who makes people's lives a living hell?

How can I distinctify between a freedom fighter and a terrorist....?

How can I distinctify between an effective teaching technique and brainwashing...?

How can I distinctify between heaven and hell themselves...?

With feeling. Which is good and which is bad to me. Is this good to me. Is this bad to me. How does this make me feel. Good. Or. Bad.

.... And a little bit of self-understanding as to whether something is helping you (feeling) or hurting you (feeling, or helping those you love (feeling) or hurting those you love (feeling), or just generally being undefinable and leaving us uncertain until we either take a leap of faith to reach a conclusion, or wait for more evidence as to whether something is bad or good before we take a leap of faith to reach a conclusion, which may or may not be negotiable.

We are machines. 0s and 1s. Yesses and nos. With the ability to feel, either for ourselves, or for others, or for both: we can accomplish compartmentalization along lines of 'bad' and 'good', and create for ourselves (or learn it from others teaching us bad from good):

Morality.

(December 3, 2015 at 5:42 pm)Violet Wrote:

(December 3, 2015 at 2:06 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: Human morality is about feelings and preferences? Well fuck me in the ass, that's just nonsense.

Curiosity. How many 'moral' sociopaths do you know of? Kinda an alien concept without feelings, really. How is a person to judge what's good from what's bad except on mathematically justified (Machiavellian) lines, without feeling?

Your precious "human morality" is the farce of feelings... if you feel that mathematical absolutism devoid of concerns for whether or not one is 'hurting people' or otherwise making their experiences with life the lesser... is immoral.

We are quite 'morally' capable of doing anything we understand to be 'correct', 'right', or otherwise feel is 'generally 'good''... entirely upon whether or not we feel it is. Other people, who feel otherwise, will call this person 'immoral'... and other people, who feel likewise, will call this person 'moral'.

....

Guess the only thing that really matters... morally... is that we do right by our selves

(December 3, 2015 at 5:53 pm)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Ndx6-HPUw

He is a good leader. Hes also a monster.
The two are not mutually exclusive. See Margret Thatcher for more details.

Okay, yes I understand the argument. But the way I see it, if x number of innocent people get hurt, and y person or people could have prevented it, then there's a variable that you can add to it, which is empathy. (I suck at math but bear with me.) So yeah, your statements are true, they're very nice statements actually, which put things in perspective. What is right and wrong is what feels right and wrong. Except my point is that when you add care for other people's pain, then whether or not you care is independent of whether or not caring for them is right. Right being determined by if innocent people are being caused harm.

Yes, there's a lot of different ways you can look at any moral argument. There's some really complex ones that I still remember from high school. One such argument was, if a friend walks into a bathroom and sees his other friend raping a little girl, is he obligated to report that person? Is he complicit with the crime? Yeah, there's very complex moral issues, but I think that you can measure quite a few of them. One such issue which I always seem to be repeating like a broken record, is is it right to persecute gay people? I'd like to think that any arguments against that that doesn't hold up to scrutiny could be refuted. Why would we even have the word refute if there wasn't a statement that could be defined as true or false? So anyways, my point is Putin persecutes gay people, he makes the lives of innocent people horrible. I fail to see how he's a great leader.

(December 3, 2015 at 7:18 am)DespondentFishdeathMasochismo Wrote: I hear he assassinates his political opposition, he bans people from making memes about him, plus the "no gay propaganda" law. I watched a documentary about being gay in Russia, it's a fucking war zone. It's a completely homophobic country, people get outed by groups of homophobic gangs, they get beaten up, anyone who tries to speak out against it gets arrested. 

So how much more do I need to know to believe Putin is an absolute Tyrant? My younger brother is very informed, he reads a ton of news, he could argue about foreign politics and tell you about his favorite economist. He fucking says Putin is a good leader, I see people on facebook saying Putin has done great things for Russia. What the fuck? I guess that's not enough dirt on a guy to make him an awful person.

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I've heard him called a thug and a gangster from a few people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ_aSl3ktjg

Americans love dictators.  That's why Trump will become the next President.