(December 5, 2015 at 6:15 pm)athrock Wrote:

(November 30, 2015 at 2:41 pm)jcvamp Wrote: I responded to a thread on Facebook about atheist morality. I expressed that I believe that religious people's belief reflects their morality and not the other way around. I gave Christians as an example, citing biblical teachings that modern Christians don't follow, and a Christian responded by arguing that everything needs a creator.

They said, 'Classic logic can bring one to the conclusion of a single God.  We humans are contingent beings, that is, my parents had to make me, your parents had to make you, so on and so forth up the line.  If any of that changed, I wouldn't be the same, or you wouldn't be the same.  Going back and back it's not as if there can be some loop where two or hundreds or thousands are equally contingent upon each other, it must come back to one being who is not contingent upon any other being. That would be God.  Now going from deism to a specific religion requires faith, but monotheistic deism is the logical way.'

This was my response, 'My parents made me using a natural biological process, and yes, their parents in turn made them. However, your logic falls apart at the point when you assume that this means a god must have initiated the process.

You postulate that everything must have a creator, then break your own postulate by saying that the first creator didn't have a creator. If your premise is that all things had a creator, who created god? You can't posit that everything requires a creator, but then say that your line of logic only works if that rule is broken. This leaves us with the postulate that some things require a creator and others do not.

If we follow this line of reasoning, my parents created me, and this extends back to a point where something came about without the need for a creator. Why can't that be the formation of organic chemicals (proteins, amino acids, RNA, and DNA) from inorganic material by chemical processes that we know to exist, and have reproduced in the lab?'

What's your take on this? What would you have responded? Do you agree or disagree with my argument?

The theist might respond this way:

Your parents created you, and your grandparents created them. Your great-grandparents created your grandparents, and so on. Keep going back in time. What created the "organic chemicals (proteins, amino acids, RNA, and DNA) from inorganic material by chemical processes that we know to exist, and have reproduced in the lab"?

The Big Bang Theory states that time, space, matter, etc. all began to exist at a single point in the distant past...approximately 13 billion years ago. Why? What caused or created the big bang? Did everything suddenly come into being out of nothing? If so, why don't we observe this phenomenon happening all the time? If you were to find a watch on the sidewalk, would you assume that is simply appeared there out of nothing, or would you assume that someone dropped it there? And would you further assume that there was a watchmaker who made it to begin with?

You have asked, "Who created god?", but the question reveals your misunderstanding of the theist Cosmological Argument which goes something like:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Theists call this cause "God". And since God is eternal, He did not BEGIN to exist; therefore, He has no creator or cause.

Exactly. Thanks for putting into words what I could not.

(December 5, 2015 at 6:15 pm)athrock Wrote:

(November 30, 2015 at 2:41 pm)jcvamp Wrote: I responded to a thread on Facebook about atheist morality. I expressed that I believe that religious people's belief reflects their morality and not the other way around. I gave Christians as an example, citing biblical teachings that modern Christians don't follow, and a Christian responded by arguing that everything needs a creator.

They said, 'Classic logic can bring one to the conclusion of a single God.  We humans are contingent beings, that is, my parents had to make me, your parents had to make you, so on and so forth up the line.  If any of that changed, I wouldn't be the same, or you wouldn't be the same.  Going back and back it's not as if there can be some loop where two or hundreds or thousands are equally contingent upon each other, it must come back to one being who is not contingent upon any other being. That would be God.  Now going from deism to a specific religion requires faith, but monotheistic deism is the logical way.'

This was my response, 'My parents made me using a natural biological process, and yes, their parents in turn made them. However, your logic falls apart at the point when you assume that this means a god must have initiated the process.

You postulate that everything must have a creator, then break your own postulate by saying that the first creator didn't have a creator. If your premise is that all things had a creator, who created god? You can't posit that everything requires a creator, but then say that your line of logic only works if that rule is broken. This leaves us with the postulate that some things require a creator and others do not.

If we follow this line of reasoning, my parents created me, and this extends back to a point where something came about without the need for a creator. Why can't that be the formation of organic chemicals (proteins, amino acids, RNA, and DNA) from inorganic material by chemical processes that we know to exist, and have reproduced in the lab?'

What's your take on this? What would you have responded? Do you agree or disagree with my argument?

The Big Bang Theory states that time, space, matter, etc. all began to exist at a single point in the distant past...approximately 13 billion years ago. Why? What caused or created the big bang? Did everything suddenly come into being out of nothing? If so, why don't we observe this phenomenon happening all the time? If you were to find a watch on the sidewalk, would you assume that is simply appeared there out of nothing, or would you assume that someone dropped it there? And would you further assume that there was a watchmaker who made it to begin with?

Shouldn't you also assume the watchmaker was created? I've never witnessed an eternal watchmaker.

And I don't think anyone here is saying anything came out of absolute nothing. Personally, I think the cosmos has always been, and therefore never really had to "arise" from anything.

(December 5, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Exactly. Thanks for putting into words what I could not.

What was the cause for the existence of god, or did you miss that logical step?

(December 5, 2015 at 7:38 pm)Kitan Wrote: What was the cause for the existence of god, or did you miss that logical step?

Addressed and answered by athrock in post #80.

Ask them who created that "creator"

If there is or was a god, it definitely isn't one from any of the religions on earth.

If some being did start the BB, it most likely didn't have control in anything that happened afterwards.

I think to compare the universe with a watch(or with yourself for that matter) is purely absurd.

The universe doesn't owe us an explanation - meaning just because we don't understand how it came to be, or that it even came to be the way we would expect it to, doesn't mean we can force upon it the most intuitive explanation we can find - in this case, the prime mover. Rather, we should listen to the experts who actually work their asses off with real evidence, theories derived from or inspired by that evidence and the mathematical works to back them up. Now compare that to the "expertise" of theologians who derive their knowledge from a book written centuries ago in an age where science was at its most rudimentary and virtually non-existent as compared to the science of today that practically makes up our world in its entirety(that is, the world that we have created for ourselves out of the one we evolved in naturally) and you've got nil. No matter how many times you deny it or claim otherwise, this is simply intellectually dishonest and driven by wishful thinking and all other sorts of biases that affect a dogmatic mind on average. It is indefensible and childish and not a thing worthy of debate in the 21st century. It's a disgrace, frankly.

(December 6, 2015 at 4:02 am)Red_Wind Wrote: If there is or was a god, it definitely isn't one from any of the religions on earth.

If some being did start the BB, it most likely didn't have control in anything that happened afterwards.

The Big Bang is just a silly Catholic theory of creation.  The universe is still being created and evolving into more complex elements.  Everything starts from quantum foam, which creates sub-atomic prticles that form hydrogen atoms.  Once celestial hydrogen is created it clumps together into gigantic balls that go nuclear, forming stars.  The stars cook the hydrogen into heavier elements.  When planets form some, such as Earth, create even more elements in their active cores.

The Big Bang is pure BS.

To be religious nowadays is to believe you are some sort of wise wizard who is part of a cult that is especially unique among humans in knowing the ultimate truth about the world we live in. It sounds like a belief in magic more than anything else.

Actually, it sounds more like a bunch of people who feel so insecure about themselves and afraid of the world they live in, that they derive comfort from fantasies. You know, when I was a kid and read Harry Potter for the first time I was partly hoping I would get mail from Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry on my 11th birthday, even though I knew I hadn't been shown to have any particular magical abilities so far.

It's a laughable state to fool yourself like this and it's about time you heard it put it like this, those of you that do. It does you far more harm than you could do anyone else- unless you're a violent or politically involved fundamentalist, that is.

We all fear death. We would all love for life to have some sort of ultimate meaning and for us to be able to feel protected and assured that we'll exist someday in a Utopia of sorts, but that's not very likely unless we do something about it ourselves instead of sitting on our asses, praying to imaginary entities and hoping for the best until we die.

(December 6, 2015 at 4:14 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:

(December 6, 2015 at 4:02 am)Red_Wind Wrote: If there is or was a god, it definitely isn't one from any of the religions on earth.

If some being did start the BB, it most likely didn't have control in anything that happened afterwards.

The Big Bang is just a silly Catholic theory of creation.  The universe is still being created and evolving into more complex elements.  Everything starts from quantum foam, which creates sub-atomic prticles that form hydrogen atoms.  Once celestial hydrogen is created it clumps together into gigantic balls that go nuclear, forming stars.  The stars cook the hydrogen into heavier elements.  When planets form some, such as Earth, create even more elements in their active cores.

The Big Bang is pure BS.

Now when you say Big Bang.... what else do you mean precisely?