(December 11, 2015 at 6:27 am)Napoléon Wrote:

(December 10, 2015 at 8:49 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Imagine your most pleasurable, satisfying experiences. Now imagine doing nothing else, forever, with no way out.

Why wouldn't it just be satisfying forever? I see no good reason that this couldn't be the case besides someone saying "that's not how the imaginary world's rules work"

The way I see it it would be satisfying forever (to a blissful extent) for all eternity and you would never ever get bored.

Yes the question is "How the fuck would that work?" and the answer is "There's no fucking logic to it, it's a made-up place and the eternity of bliss without ever being dissatisfied is merely defined into the idea itself."

The only way heaven could be all it's cracked up to be is if it was a full-body 24/7 knee-trembling mind-blowing bed-destroying neighbour-terrifying wall-shaking orgasm, for the rest of time.

I've had like 600 of those already in my life and plan on instigating many more yet, so even THEN it's not exactly moving me to Jeebus. Heaven is the ultimate distillment of the wish-fulfillment fantasy that is Christianity, nothing more, nothing less.

I've pointed out many times that I think their is a reason the universe expands out infinatly. I honestly believe this will be our play ground. Maybe star trek style maybe we get our own planet or system to take care of. I can't imagine that all we'd get to do is one long church service for eternity. No, I think that will be reserved for those of you who are going to try and sneak in with a death bed confession (Minnie this means you)

(December 11, 2015 at 10:43 am)Evie Wrote:

(December 11, 2015 at 6:27 am)Napoléon Wrote: Why wouldn't it just be satisfying forever? I see no good reason that this couldn't be the case besides someone saying "that's not how the imaginary world's rules work"

The way I see it it would be satisfying forever (to a blissful extent) for all eternity and you would never ever get bored.

Yes the question is "How the fuck would that work?" and the answer is "There's no fucking logic to it, it's a made-up place and the eternity of bliss without ever being dissatisfied is merely defined into the idea itself."

Bliss comes in the form of Complete and eternal Love from the Father. Their are no words to describe this feeling. The only thing that comes close is being made whole/complete not wanting for needing anything.

(December 11, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Drich Wrote: Bliss comes in the form of Complete and eternal Love from the Father. Their are no words to describe this feeling. The only thing that comes close is being made whole/complete not wanting for needing anything.

Nice story. Actually nah, it was quite boring: I prefer LOTR.

Drich Wrote:I've pointed out many times that I think their is a reason the universe expands out infinatly. I honestly believe this will be our play ground.

Now you really are just making shit up all by yourself.

(December 11, 2015 at 12:19 am)Stimbo Wrote:

Quote:Why? What is sacrosanct about humanity per se? I can't see how something could be a crime if no one is suffering.

Are you serious? Take away the capacity to feel and react in a way fundamental to the species merely to make eternity endurable; what are you rewarding? A crime against nature is still a crime, however much it may be rationalised.

I'll put it another way. Any version of me that has to be altered to remove a fundamental part of my nature against my will merely to conform is not a version of me that I would recognise as myself; nor would I wish it to be. And neither would I wish such an existence on my worst enemy.

Maybe if each change was really small, you'd get over it. Like alcohol..... you drink a little bit... and then a little more... and pretty soon you're smashed.

(December 11, 2015 at 1:12 am)Vincent Wrote:

(December 11, 2015 at 1:03 am)wallym Wrote: Quibbling over whether a make believe place that makes you happy forever would actually make you happy forever is as silly as it gets.  If it were real, you'd be happy forever.  How you say?  Who the eff knows.  There's a magical place we'd be going to after we die if we were good with a big magic God thing in some alternate existence.  I'm pretty sure all logical bets of how long you could or couldn't stay happy for would be off in that scenario.

I like to discuss it. Why? Because I think hope for Heaven and an afterlife is one of the main reasons why religion and belief in God still exists - it helps people lay their head down at night. And it's important to me that I can show people who believe in such nonsense why it's not even a very good idea in the first place, and why the entire concept is ridiculous. Being a mindless drone condemned to experience happiness and only happiness (which is the opposite of free will) for the rest of eternity in a paradise that never ends is a disgusting concept. I don't want my fellow human beings believing in this garbage. Lessening the appeal might make people more willing to question the existence of it altogether.

This is a nonsensical way to go about what you're trying to do.  You don't know if you'd be a mindless drone.  You don't know what happiness would even be.  Our brains are in charge of emotions like boring/happy/mindless here in reality.  The brain doesn't go with us.  So who knows what's possible in imagination land.  

For the sake of argument we are pretending we're a made up undefined entity in a made up undefined (except that it is positive forever) place, and then you say that isn't possible because of what you know about the world we live in now that obviously has very different rules due to it existing.
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On top of which, not wanting fellow humans to believe in something that helps them lay their head down at night is a weird thing to be passionate about.

(December 11, 2015 at 11:47 am)Kaiser Wrote: The only way heaven could be all it's cracked up to be is if it was a full-body 24/7 knee-trembling mind-blowing bed-destroying neighbour-terrifying wall-shaking orgasm, for the rest of time.

I've had like 600 of those already in my life and plan on instigating many more yet, so even THEN it's not exactly moving me to Jeebus. Heaven is the ultimate distillment of the wish-fulfillment fantasy that is Christianity, nothing more, nothing less.

Why does it have to be an orgasm? Have you ever injected a speedball? I'm pretty sure that's like infinitely better than an orgasm. I never have, but I have done a huge dose of mushrooms and the bliss I felt at one point was orders of magnitude better than an orgasm. Orgasms are lame by comparison to a lot of highly accessible states of bliss. I'm sure there are many others on offer I haven't done.

I think you're still not quite separating the ideas that need to be separated, though. First, this isn't a thread about whether heaven is real. Yes, the Christian heaven is very wishful and magical thinking. Second, the real question is why they have that wish and if it isn't a legitimate one. I am arguing that their position in that regard is actually probably more honest. Why someone wouldn't want to go to a place of eternal bliss, no strings attached, after they die is a head-scratcher. This has nothing to do with any particular religion, by the way. People seem to just assume we are talking only about Christianity.

(December 11, 2015 at 1:20 pm)Drich Wrote: I've pointed out many times that I think their is a reason the universe expands out infinatly. I honestly believe this will be our play ground. Maybe star trek style maybe we get our own planet or system to take care of. I can't imagine that all we'd get to do is one long church service for eternity. No, I think that will be reserved for those of you who are going to try and sneak in with a death bed confession (Minnie this means you)

I think it already is our playground. I'm just waiting around for everyone else to realize it. Why should death and magic be required? Here we are. 

(December 11, 2015 at 1:39 pm)Drich Wrote: Bliss comes in the form of Complete and eternal Love from the Father. Their are no words to describe this feeling. The only thing that comes close is being made whole/complete not wanting for needing anything.

Not wanting for or needing anything is essentially death. And it's not a bad thing, by definition. But it's not good either. Happiness is something positive; it is more than just a lack of desire or need.

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(December 11, 2015 at 2:05 pm)wallym Wrote: This is a nonsensical way to go about what you're trying to do.  You don't know if you'd be a mindless drone.  You don't know what happiness would even be.  Our brains are in charge of emotions like boring/happy/mindless here in reality.  The brain doesn't go with us.  So who knows what's possible in imagination land.  

For the sake of argument we are pretending we're a made up undefined entity in a made up undefined (except that it is positive forever) place, and then you say that isn't possible because of what you know about the world we live in now that obviously has very different rules due to it existing.

Indeed.

Quote:On top of which, not wanting fellow humans to believe in something that helps them lay their head down at night is a weird thing to be passionate about.

In a vacuum, I suppose. But I do agree with whoever said that the belief in an afterlife devalues this life. Beliefs always have consequences. I think the religious view breeds heavy fatalism about this world. In some of the worst cases, I've actually watched as people lost steam later in life and spent their days sadly waiting to be raptured. One woman I know told me she actually lays down her head at night saying "take me, Lord". That's when this belief has ceased to be comforting.

In the absence of hope for life after death, making this world a better place seems to become significantly more important to people.

I'm guessing heaven comes with a divine lobotomy to magically forget all the people, including possible loved ones, burning in hell in unimaginable torture for eternity?

(December 11, 2015 at 5:55 pm)Vic Wrote: I'm guessing heaven comes with a divine lobotomy to magically forget all the people, including possible loved ones, burning in hell in unimaginable torture for eternity?

That would be bad. But it isn't what we are talking about here.