(December 13, 2015 at 6:31 pm)Whateverist the White Wrote: Not from their perspective.  Do you wait until seven to teach your values?  Don't think so.  If you don't hold that your god belief is suspect, why would you hold back?  It is to be expected.

Do you have values?

If so, do you think your values are good without insinuating god or gods into them?

If so, then do you think reasonable Catholics such as Catholic Lady and us can agree on values which are good and worth teaching without getting any gods involved?

What I'm doing here is asking Catholic Lady to put some honor behind her stated "hope" that her children will do their own "soul searching" on religious values, which rarely happens without regrettable delay in children who are pre-programmed to have her religious ideas. Anyway, there are much better ideas to give a young child for good behavior than "...or god will be pissed"!

(December 13, 2015 at 6:37 pm)Quantum Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ^Exactly. I will teach my children what I sincerely believe to be the truth. There's no reason why I wouldn't.

Yes there is a reason.
I won't do that for example. I will not teach my daughter that there is no god. I will tell her that I sincerely believe that there is no god, but I will try to avoid telling her that as a truth behind which I put my authority as a parent, because her thinking about it freely is a higher good than her adopting my point of view on the matter.

That is still pretty different.  For most of us atheism is not a positive belief, nothing we're greatly invested in.  So intrinsically it isn't anything we would want to emphasize in child rearing anyhow.  For the theist, they believe it as something extremely important even central to who they are.  That we would not coerce disbelief doesn't really make us more noble.  Apples and oranges.

(December 13, 2015 at 6:40 pm)Heat Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: ^Exactly. I will teach my children what I sincerely believe to be the truth. There's no reason why I wouldn't.

Hopefully you recognize that this is what you believe to be the truth, and that by definition it is a subjective truth. The reason people wouldn't want you to raise them within the faith, is for fear that you would raise them to believe that this is an objective truth, when it is not.

I strongly believe it is an objective truth.

(December 13, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 6:40 pm)Heat Wrote: Hopefully you recognize that this is what you believe to be the truth, and that by definition it is a subjective truth. The reason people wouldn't want you to raise them within the faith, is for fear that you would raise them to believe that this is an objective truth, when it is not.

I strongly believe it is an objective truth.

Quote:A proposition is generally considered objectively true (to have objective truth) when its truth conditions are met and are "bias-free"; that is, existing without biases caused by, feelings, ideas, etc. of a sentient subject.

You are wrong.

Lol, you're an atheist. Of course you think I'm wrong. You wouldn't be one if you didn't.

(December 13, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lol, you're an atheist. Of course you think I'm wrong. You wouldn't be one if you didn't.

I did not say you are wrong about god. I said you are wrong in thinking this is an objective truth, and that the conditions for it to be considered the truth over all other similar claims were met.

(December 13, 2015 at 7:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(December 13, 2015 at 6:40 pm)Heat Wrote: t
Hopefully you recognize that this is what you believe to be the truth, and that by definition it is a subjective truth. The reason people wouldn't want you to raise them within the faith, is for fear that you would raise them to believe that this is an objective truth, when it is not.

I strongly believe it is an objective truth.

Do you understand the sort of proof which an "objective" truth requires? Belief in any god is an unfalsifiable idea, and this also means it cannot be proven true by the same standards as one would attempt to falsify it, if this were in any way possible.

Just in case "falsifiable" is not understood, it doesn't mean that an idea is in doubt. No scientific ideas are regarded as absolute, there remains at least the possibility that they may be proven false someday. The earth is regarded as a sphere because the earth has been circumnavigated, and we have all seen the photos from space. Proof is good enough that we can call it a sphere, but that idea will always be subject to scientific review. It will always remain a falsifiable idea, just as it was when people began to believe it, which was not through divine revelation, but by scientific inquiry. Those ideas which are not open to scientific inquiry but are claimed to be true nevertheless are unfalsifiable. Unfalsifiable ideas are true only to those who believe them, they are as impossible to prove outside of your sphere of belief through logical vetting as they are impossible to disprove in such a way to the believer, therefore they cannot be "objective truth".

(December 13, 2015 at 7:08 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Lol, you're an atheist. Of course you think I'm wrong. You wouldn't be one if you didn't.

A person can believe that they are Elvis Presley. They can truly believe this, in their heart of hearts, is true. Even though people may deny it, it doesn't make it any less true in their mind. However, does this make them Elvis Presley? No, it does not.

No matter how much you believe something, that does not make it objectively true.

By "objective truth" do you guys mean something that is actually real?

Yes, I believe God is actually real.

(December 13, 2015 at 7:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: By "objective truth" do you guys mean something that is actually real?

Yes, I believe God is actually real.

THAT'S WHY IT'S SUBJECTIVE!