In a topic written here, the author showed the amount of wars that included Muslims as a fighting side :
http://atheistforums.org/thread-40072.html

In this topic, I will discuss the issue with more details, and shed the light on more than one point involving these conflicts.

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Intro :
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The author cited 16 of the deadliest conflicts within the article below, that involve Muslims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_on..._past_year

I would further go through the reason, why I think the claim is false that these war are derived from the Islamic faith.

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Reason 1 : The tribal nature of the regions
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If we counted the list from the top to the bottom, we'll find that all the conflicts "literally ; all" are happening due to tribal reasons, religion is only a paint the different tribes paint each other with, but the problem is in its core : tribal.

As an example :

1) Turkish/PKK conflict :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey%E2%...K_conflict
Quoting wikipedia :

Quote:The Turkey–PKK conflict[note] is an armed conflict between the Republic of Turkey and various Kurdish insurgent groups,[56] which have demanded separation from Turkey to create an independent,

2)The Palestinian/Israeli conflict :
Quoting wikipedia:

Quote:Following the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948, the Arab League decided to intervene on behalf of Palestinian Arabs, marching their forces into former British Palestine, beginning the main phase of the 

[/url]
3)War in Darfur (Nothan Sudan) :
Quoting wikipedia :

Quote:The War in Darfur is a major armed conflict in the Darfur region ofSudan, that began in February 2003 when the Sudan Liberation Movement (SLM) and Justice and Equality Movement (JEM) rebel groups began fighting the government of Sudan, which they accused of oppressing Darfur's non- population

As we can observe, many of the conflicts took place for tribal reason. Religion was only the romantic symphony in the background, but it's all about bad blood between two or more tribes/nations. The classic Turkish/PKK conflict is the perfect example.

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Reason 2 : The distribution of natural recourses :
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Some of the conflicts, on the other hand, took place because of the natural distribution of recourses; the conflicts involving natural recourses are :

1)Libyan civil war
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Cri...93present)
Quoting wikipedia :

Quote:a multinational coalition led by NATO forces intervened on 21 March 2011 with the aim to protect civilians against attacks by the government's forces.[10]

Since when, did the Schengen agreement included Libya ?
But searching in Libya's economy, we find :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Libya

Quote:Libya had seen fantastic growth rate, however these proved unsustainable in the face of global oil recession and international sanctions

2) American invasion of Iraq :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War_(disambiguation)


Also, if we search in Iraq's economy, we find :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Iraq
Quoting wikipedia :
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq]

Quote:'s economy is dominated by the oil sector

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Reason 3 : United State's warmongering between different countries:
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The United States played a golden role in igniting many conflicts.
That way, the U.S can provide arm deals for both sides and win double from that war.

1) Syrian civil war & Saudi invasion of Yemen :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War

In the Syrian civil war, the United States supported the "opposition" until it grew strong, then, when opposition groups started to attack other countries, the U.S offered weaponry and military expertise to the surrounding countries.

Check those arm deals (some are with billions) that the U.S made, due to the Syrian conflict, the war in Yemen and the war against ISIS :

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015...en-weapons
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/i...a_20150904
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/09...d-s05.html

Note, this tactic is not only used with Muslims. China is suffering from the same game.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...sales.html

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Conclusion :
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I leave it to you.

Great. Bigots on one side and apologists on the other.

You probably don't even realize that you're playing the no true scottsman card here. Of course the radicals have everything to do with Islam - as they understand it. These conflicts have political as well as radical religious backgrounds.

The role of Islam in these modern conflicts is one and the same.

Islam seriously retarded every culture is touched and hampered their attainment of modernity in social, economic and military terms.   So Islam made the Islamic world the natural victims of the west.   Islam's only response to the weakness its innate primitivism had inflicted upon its victims is to scream more stridently for more primitivism.

Islam is involved in so many wars because Islam made Muslims so ripe for the picking. Islam's influence upon its victims can be summarized as "incorrigibly backwards, incorrigibly in denial, and bitterly resentful of anyone who points that out".

It's simple the mindset of zealotry and the fucking ideology and political issues.
Take a look at the middle east and fucking Israel. The mindset of anti semitic thing has been
around even before Hitler. So then you have the 1940's the persecution of the jews
they were nearly wiped off the face of the earth and their culture. So after that with a lot issues
fighting etc you get Israel a pretty good place to call for their own. Note every other Judochristian belief
is fine with the jews except for guess what the muslims. You know why because Israel is the birth place
of both of our religions yet we all worship the same god one of us is just very primitive and hate filled.
Then you look at it all 3 religions teach hate, violence, rape, murder, killing, genocide, etc. Besides that
one only needs to look at the economy to see what sort of conditions people are living in and it's not very good
conditions. If people were in better living conditions to what they are now sure things would be better but the
fact is people still hold a irrational intolerance and hatred and they use that to cause so many damn issues.

(December 18, 2015 at 6:26 pm)abaris Wrote: Great. Bigots on one side and apologists on the other.

You probably don't even realize that you're playing the no true scottsman card here. Of course the radicals have everything to do with Islam - as they understand it. These conflicts have political as well as radical religious backgrounds.

I promised to open another topic discussing the role of certain Islamic beliefs on the violence being carried on and practiced by some Muslims.

You can find my comment about that here :
http://atheistforums.org/thread-40072.html


Anomalocaris

Quote:The role of Islam in these modern conflicts is one and the same.

Islam seriously retarded every culture is touched and hampered their attainment of modernity in social, economic and military terms.   So Islam made the Islamic world the natural victims of the west.   Islam's only response to the weakness its innate primitivism had inflicted upon its victims is to scream more stridently for more primitivism.

Islam is involved in so many wars because Islam made Muslims so ripe for the picking. Islam's influence upon its victims can be summarized as "incorrigibly backwards, incorrigibly in denial, and bitterly resentful of anyone who points that out".

The topic was never about culture, nor the impact of religion on it. Rather, it's about wars & conflict.
The claim is bigoted, and throws the crimes of the west on Islam. Plain & simple.

The Muslim world was not the only victim of western imperialism, and proof is wide that wherever natural recourses are, the west will be present with arms and weaponry to take its interest. 

The native Americans are one example. The west's foreign policy is based on profiting from warfare, death, and bloodshed, blaming it on Islam is something bigoted and considered as blowing ash in the eyes to cover up something nasty.

(December 19, 2015 at 1:21 am)dyresand Wrote: It's simple the mindset of zealotry and the fucking ideology and political issues.
Take a look at the middle east and fucking Israel. The mindset of anti semitic thing has been
around even before Hitler. So then you have the 1940's the persecution of the jews
they were nearly wiped off the face of the earth and their culture. So after that with a lot issues
fighting etc you get Israel a pretty good place to call for their own. Note every other Judochristian belief
is fine with the jews except for guess what the muslims. You know why because Israel is the birth place
of both of our religions yet we all worship the same god one of us is just very primitive and hate filled.
Then you look at it all 3 religions teach hate, violence, rape, murder, killing, genocide, etc. Besides that
one only needs to look at the economy to see what sort of conditions people are living in and it's  not very good
conditions. If  people were in better living conditions to what they are now sure things would be better but the
fact is people still hold a irrational intolerance and hatred and they use that to cause so many damn issues.

When you speak about Israel, call & cite the Zionist role in its creation, and don't insult all the Jews by claiming that they wanted "that home" :
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

Second of all, the biggest massacres against Jews were at the hands of :
1-German nationalists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

2-Christian Inquisition 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
Quoting wikipedia:

Quote:In some parts of Spain towards the end of the 14th century, there was a wave of violent anti-Judaism, encouraged by the preaching of Ferrand Martinez, Archdeacon ofEcija. In the pogroms of June 1391 in Seville, hundreds of Jews were killed, and thesynagogue was completely destroyed. The number of people killed was also high in other cities, such as Córdoba, Valencia and Barcelona.[32]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition#cite_note-32][/url]
So that's "Christianity's problem with the Jews".
Could you name me a Muslim massacre against Jews ?
In the scenario of Palestine, you don't expect to invade others, and get out without getting casualties. The most ironic thing, is to invade some people by force and build nuclear reactors and bombs in their lands, then get mad when they try kick you out by force.

Third, the problem of Muslims with Jews, became so severe because of the Jewish invasion of Palestine.
Forth, Muslims weren't the ones who exiled Jews from Palestine.

Nationalism also teach hate, for example, the word "Paradise" is substituted in the U.S by the word "democracy".
Not because the phrases are different, then the hate is not there. 

Most hate today comes from nationalists (the kind of hate that causes atomic blasts and world wars).

You have to be careful with who you link to. The Neturei Karta are a very strange, very religious and very small cult in the Jewish world, notable for attending holocaust denial conferences. I think to use them as an example of Jews being against Israel is pretty bad form. Not that there aren't Jews that think Israel is a bad idea. Many secular Jews in the US do.

(December 19, 2015 at 5:24 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: You have to be careful with who you link to. The Neturei Karta are a very strange, very religious and very small cult in the Jewish world, notable for attending holocaust denial conferences. I think to use them as an example of Jews being against Israel is pretty bad form. Not that there aren't Jews that think Israel is a bad idea. Many secular Jews in the US do.

Then, why don't the same be applied to ISIS ? just arguing, that many conflicts -like the conflict in Syria- is actually witnessing the acts of a small extremist weird sect in the Muslim world calling itself "ISIS".

Above all, here is a quote from the Neturei Katra about page :

Quote:Neturei Karta is not - as is often alleged - a small sect or an extremist group of "ultra-orthodox" Jews. The Neturei Karta have added nothing to nor have they taken anything away from the written and oral law of the Torah as it is expressed in the Halacha and the Shulchan Aruch. The Neturei Karta are fighting the changes and inroads made by political Zionism during the past one-hundred odd years. Guided by the rabbis of our time and under the inspiring leadership of the late Reb Amram Blau, the Neturei Karta refuse to recognize the right of anyone to establish a "Jewish" state during the present period of exile.

Your statement, about the amounts of secular Jews who are against Israel, approve the above statement.  Denying the holocaust is an opinion, that should be protected under the laws & rules of the freedom of speech. 

Many atheists too, deny the massacres of Israel against Muslims, and ironically it's an accepted view despite the modern evidence that includes documents, graves & video footages.

In that case, denying the holocaust should not be a view that demonizes its carrier.

(December 19, 2015 at 1:51 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: [

I

The topic was never about culture, nor the impact of religion on it. Rather, it's about wars & conflict.
The claim is bigoted, and throws the crimes of the west on Islam. Plain & simple.

The Muslim world was not the only victim of western imperialism, and proof is wide that wherever natural recourses are, the west will be present with arms and weaponry to take its interest. 

The native Americans are one example. The west's foreign policy is based on profiting from warfare, death, and bloodshed, blaming it on Islam is something bigoted and considered as blowing ash in the eyes to cover up something nasty.

So? Several other victims of western imperialism understood and embraced modernity. As a result they made themselves victims no longer. In fact, of all the cultures of any size and scope that ran afoul of modern western imperialism, almost everyone that weren't destroyed by the initial collision have managed to embrace modernity within 50-150 years or so and raised themselves to parity or near parity with the west in modernity, all but those blighted by Islam.

It is a necessary attribute for a culture to adapt that which is practically better. it say it is the crime of the west to pick on Islamic world is utterly irrelevant. To be weak and unable to become strong may be no crime, but it is a sure predictor of being picked on. To harp on those who pick on the weak while not address what kept the weak weak is about as useful as claiming gravity committed a crime by pulling a man who failed secure himself to his death, therefore men ought not to be blamed for not securing themselves.

Practically, Islam has been unable to surmount itself to become modern. Therefore it must either prevent the world from becoming modern, or it would become victim of one or another that does.

Islam's crime is doubled down on the utterly repulsive as well as utterly impossible goal of rolling back modernity, and have shown itself prepared to exact any price that seem necessary upon those it afflicted while in the vain pursuit of this objective, rather than either dying, or adapt itself to modernity. So either Muslims consign themselves forever to struggling feebly, and ever less effectually if more violently, against modernity, or Muslims must kill any aspects of Islam that ties Muslim societies to the desert primitivism, so those who had been Muslims can gain parity in the modern world.

(December 19, 2015 at 8:10 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: So?   Several other victims of western imperialism understood and embraced modernity.  As a result they made themselves victims no longer.  In fact, of all the cultures of any size and scope that ran afoul of modern western imperialism, almost everyone that weren't destroyed by the initial collision have managed to embrace modernity within 50-150 years or so and raised themselves to parity or near parity with the west in modernity,  all but those blighted by Islam.

It is a necessary attribute for a culture to adapt that which is practically better.  it say it is the crime of the west to pick on Islamic world is utterly irrelevant.  To be weak and unable to become strong may be no crime, but it is a sure predictor of being picked on.   To harp on those who pick on the weak while not address what kept the weak weak is about as useful as claiming gravity committed a crime by pulling a man who failed secure himself to his death, therefore men ought not to be blamed for not securing themselves.

Practically, Islam has been unable to surmount itself to become modern.  Therefore it must either prevent the world from becoming modern, or it would become victim of one or another that does.  

Islam's crime is doubled down on the utterly repulsive as well as utterly impossible goal of rolling back modernity, and have shown itself prepared to exact any price that seem necessary upon those it afflicted while in the vain pursuit of this objective, rather than either dying, or adapt itself to modernity.  So either Muslims consign themselves forever to struggling feebly, and ever less effectually if more violently, against modernity, or Muslims must kill any aspects of Islam that ties Muslim societies to the desert primitivism, so those who had been Muslims can gain parity in the modern world.

Literally, you are saying : "it's either our way or the highway". You make me sick.


Wake up; the western way turned the world into a crowded-armed to the teeth-atomic fortresses, awaiting a spark to ignite their misery into a big mushroom cloud. 
A world connected by a fragile and corrupted economy that is waiting to fall down any minute. I thought 2008 was an enough reminder, of what western imperialism did to the world ?

Those who "adapted" or let me say "mutated" will fall down with the rotten economy.

Now, an Islamic system based on "GOLD" instead of paper money and "moneylending with interest" would've savored the world this dark grim state.


Stuff changed a lot between 2000 and 2015. To the worst. Ask economists if you don't believe me.

The west, cornered itself and wired the whole world with it in a sealed room, with ton-load of bombs, with the sealing of the room leaking gas. That's the "legacy" of the west if you ask me.