(December 20, 2015 at 10:47 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(December 15, 2015 at 4:16 pm)Delicate Wrote: One of the standard mantras atheists are taught to say is "I'm an atheist because I have seen no evidence for God."

This is not a convincing reason to be an atheist. Why?

It's possible for someone to be too blind or too ignorant to see or understand the evidence. Just like a toddler might say "I see no evidence of the validity of Quantum Mechanics" or a blind woman might say "I see no evidence of the existence of colors" the problem might be with the person and not the evidence. 

Clearly, if the atheist wants the public to believe that there is no evidence, they have to be able to respond meaningfully to purported examples of theistic evidence. 

Atheists here, for the most part are not competent enough to do this. 

And hence, when someone says they are an atheist because they have seen no evidence, the best response seems to be to send them to an optometrist.

Obviously this thread involves some sort of personal argument since I can see that the first posts involve statements like "You fucking dolt bullshit raaaaaaggghghghg ...."

Anyway my personal response to this is that I don't say that because I can't see proof of god this god doesn't exist.

All I say is that I see no evidence of god therefore I reject any belief in god.  I think god and religions are manmade constructs.

There might be something out there we have no proof of, it might even be a god, but I just see no proof of it.

Thoughts on the response?

It's the same as the OP. You say you see no evidence. It's an open question whether this is because there is no evidence, or because you simply haven't looked. 

One way to show your atheism is not a result of ignorance is to grapple with the provided evidence.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Delicate Wrote:

(December 20, 2015 at 10:47 pm)paulpablo Wrote: Obviously this thread involves some sort of personal argument since I can see that the first posts involve statements like "You fucking dolt bullshit raaaaaaggghghghg ...."

Anyway my personal response to this is that I don't say that because I can't see proof of god this god doesn't exist.

All I say is that I see no evidence of god therefore I reject any belief in god.  I think god and religions are manmade constructs.

There might be something out there we have no proof of, it might even be a god, but I just see no proof of it.

Thoughts on the response?

It's the same as the OP. You say you see no evidence. It's an open question whether this is because there is no evidence, or because you simply haven't looked. 

One way to show your atheism is not a result of ignorance is to grapple with the provided evidence.

But it's also a way to spend your life grappling with millions of false claims about god.

I'm not just making an offhand remark or a simple joke when I say that.  It's simply like one fire brigade trying to put out every fire in the world, with new forest fires starting everyday.

Practically speaking even if I set out on a new mission to tackle every claim of evidence that there is a god, abandoned my family, friends and newborn baby and job and focused on this one goal, I still would probably not have tackled even 10% of the claims made, and it's more than likely the 10% I did try and tackle would still be sure they were right even if they were wrong, and new religious claims would have been made by the time of my death, and entirely new religions created with new cult leaders.

I won't deny I ignore things and I'm full of ignorance.  Ignorance is a by-product of focus. Normal functional people have to ignore things, it's a survival skill to decide what to ignore and what to focus on in life.  If you paid attention and gave merit to every scam, false advertisement, cult in the world you simply wouldn't have time to live.

I've been raised with the "evidence" in the form of the bible, rejected that, become acquainted with the quran, same bullshit, and I see a lot of different claims on here that are either easily proven wrong or so vague that that can't be proven wrong or right and pretty much don't mean anything.

I've presented many arguments for God here over the years.

My experience is that they come to deny primary premises which cannot be proven except by direct experience or witnessing.

For example, deny we know we have perpetual identity. Deny we know we inherit our actions (it becomes part of who we are). Deny we know there is objective praise or morality or value or worth or greatness or honor. Deny there are stages -higher and lower, and that this system of inheriting our actions is obvious. Deny the light. Deny everything that points to God. Even deny we know free-will exists if it leads you to believe in a soul.

But this is to me is to no surprise no more. I have thought of the issue of how obvious it is upon sincere reflection of what we are. That we are spiritual beings, souls, it's obvious we aren't just a program created by a biological machine, but that, we really are something of substance....not just an experience created through what doesn't have experience. We aren't non-material experience created by material. We are spiritual beings. It's so manifest, so clear.

God is the Manifest True King.

I use to think most Atheists would not mind believing in God if they were presented evidence. But I've come to the conclusion, very few of humanity seek the truth or embrace it when they find it.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:06 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(December 20, 2015 at 11:04 pm)Delicate Wrote: Atheist rage bro. LOL it's like you drew an Atheist Mohammed.

Do you have any thoughts on my response?

You're not actually expecting Delicate to have thoughts are you? After all, the only thing we've seen is regurgitated tripe.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I've presented many arguments for God here over the years.

My experience is that they come to deny primary premises which cannot be proven except by direct experience or witnessing.

For example, deny we know we have perpetual identity. Deny we know we inherit our actions (it becomes part of who we are). Deny we know there is objective praise or morality or value or worth or greatness or honor. Deny there are stages -higher and lower, and that this system of inheriting our actions is obvious. Deny the light. Deny everything that points to God. Even deny we know free-will exists if it leads you to believe in a soul.

But this is to me is to no surprise no more. I have thought of the issue of how obvious it is upon sincere reflection of what we are.  That we are spiritual beings, souls, it's obvious we aren't just a program created by a biological machine, but that, we really are something of substance....not just an experience created through what doesn't have experience. We aren't non-material experience created by material. We are spiritual beings. It's so manifest, so clear.

God is the Manifest True King.

I use to think most Atheists would not mind believing in God if they were presented evidence. But I've come to the conclusion, very few of humanity seek the truth or embrace it when they find it.

This is a prime example of the sort claim I would briefly read through then ignore so I could focus my attention on things that aren't babble.

Just reading the phrase "Deny the light, everything that points to god, god is the manifest true king."  makes me think I'm reading nonsense.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:06 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(December 20, 2015 at 11:04 pm)Delicate Wrote: Atheist rage bro. LOL it's like you drew an Atheist Mohammed.

Do you have any thoughts?

Fixed for scope.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:22 pm)paulpablo Wrote:

(December 20, 2015 at 11:10 pm)Delicate Wrote: Thoughts on the response?

It's the same as the OP. You say you see no evidence. It's an open question whether this is because there is no evidence, or because you simply haven't looked. 

One way to show your atheism is not a result of ignorance is to grapple with the provided evidence.

But it's also a way to spend your life grappling with millions of false claims about god.

I'm not just making an offhand remark or a simple joke when I say that.  It's simply like one fire brigade trying to put out every fire in the world, with new forest fires starting everyday.

Practically speaking even if I set out on a new mission to tackle every claim of evidence that there is a god, abandoned my family, friends and newborn baby and job and focused on this one goal, I still would probably not have tackled even 10% of the claims made, and it's more than likely the 10% I did try and tackle would still be sure they were right even if they were wrong, and new religious claims would have been made by the time of my death, and entirely new religions created with new cult leaders.

I won't deny I ignore things and I'm full of ignorance.  Ignorance is a by-product of focus. Normal functional people have to ignore things, it's a survival skill to decide what to ignore and what to focus on in life.  If you paid attention and gave merit to every scam, false advertisement, cult in the world you simply wouldn't have time to live.

I've been raised with the "evidence" in the form of the bible, rejected that, become acquainted with the quran, same bullshit, and I see a lot of different claims on here that are either easily proven wrong or so vague that that can't be proven wrong or right and pretty much don't mean anything.

One might say the same about science. Science involves grappling with millions of false claims about reality to discover the truth.

If science can survive this ordeal to discover the truth about reality, atheists can survive this ordeal to discover the truth about God.

Or, you know, one can be intellectually honest and be an agnostic, because they haven't been able to successfully justify atheism.

Or, one can depend on philosophers or other specialists as a filter so only the good arguments remain, many of which are in circulation today.

The situation isn't hopeless.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I've presented many arguments for God here over the years.

My experience is that they come to deny primary premises which cannot be proven except by direct experience or witnessing.

For example, deny we know we have perpetual identity. Deny we know we inherit our actions (it becomes part of who we are). Deny we know there is objective praise or morality or value or worth or greatness or honor. Deny there are stages -higher and lower, and that this system of inheriting our actions is obvious. Deny the light. Deny everything that points to God. Even deny we know free-will exists if it leads you to believe in a soul.

But this is to me is to no surprise no more. I have thought of the issue of how obvious it is upon sincere reflection of what we are.  That we are spiritual beings, souls, it's obvious we aren't just a program created by a biological machine, but that, we really are something of substance....not just an experience created through what doesn't have experience. We aren't non-material experience created by material. We are spiritual beings. It's so manifest, so clear.

God is the Manifest True King.

I use to think most Atheists would not mind believing in God if they were presented evidence. But I've come to the conclusion, very few of humanity seek the truth or embrace it when they find it.

What you will never see from an atheist is any denial of reality. Put a sock in your rhetorical and insulting mouth, and present empirical evidence for the claims you make here, or stop making claims.

You don't see anything which is real that others cannot unless you (and that would necessarily have to be you) are hiding it from us.

So, which is it Mystic?!! Are you masturbating to your delusions again, or are you really hiding something valuable, which we're gonna have to shake you down for if we want to see it ourselves?

I SAY GET THE FUCKER!!!


heheeheheheheheheheh!

(December 20, 2015 at 11:50 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote: What you will never see from an atheist is any denial of reality. 

So not acknowledging God's existence is all of a sudden the new way to determine the sincere towards the truth, the people accept proofs when shown to them, the people who reject falsehood and struggle for truth?

It's better to just speak for yourself. And if you are going to speak for yourself, try to measure your intention and see how sincere you are in that.

I've presented so much arguments over the years and I've come to the conclusion there is many conclusive evidence and sound arguments for the existence of God. If you want to debate me,  I will happily debate you about this issue in the debate section of this forum.

(December 20, 2015 at 11:50 pm)God of Mr. Hanky Wrote:

(December 20, 2015 at 11:23 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I've presented many arguments for God here over the years.

My experience is that they come to deny primary premises which cannot be proven except by direct experience or witnessing.

For example, deny we know we have perpetual identity. Deny we know we inherit our actions (it becomes part of who we are). Deny we know there is objective praise or morality or value or worth or greatness or honor. Deny there are stages -higher and lower, and that this system of inheriting our actions is obvious. Deny the light. Deny everything that points to God. Even deny we know free-will exists if it leads you to believe in a soul.

But this is to me is to no surprise no more. I have thought of the issue of how obvious it is upon sincere reflection of what we are.  That we are spiritual beings, souls, it's obvious we aren't just a program created by a biological machine, but that, we really are something of substance....not just an experience created through what doesn't have experience. We aren't non-material experience created by material. We are spiritual beings. It's so manifest, so clear.

God is the Manifest True King.

I use to think most Atheists would not mind believing in God if they were presented evidence. But I've come to the conclusion, very few of humanity seek the truth or embrace it when they find it.

What you will never see from an atheist is any denial of reality.