(January 1, 2016 at 10:14 am)Aractus Wrote: As I mentioned earlier, every one of the five Star Wars sequels/prequels expanded the universe and brought its own story.

The trailer promised a more intimate and serious movie more in the tone of the original trilogy, but what was delivered was an action movie first and foremost with little regard to intimacy, story integrity, or the creativity and imagination of the original trilogy. What we got was bland and predictable.

It covers so much ground it is hard to imagine how much more story could have been delivered. What you call "bland" lots of us would call recognizably Star Wars .. in a good way. Being ostensibly an action movie is part of what it takes to be recognizably Star Warsy. "Bland"? I wasn't bored. I was amused. I went away wanting more.

I think you may have built the original films up into more than they were. They were light hearted, humorous, action filled .. and contained a core story that made us care. The new film is all of that.

No what, the new film is simply a bland formalistic piece with nothing new.

Even people who criticise the prequels relentlessly don't say they didn't have a fresh story. And for their flaws, GL has successfully made some really great sequels - and this is something other directors/film-makers often fail at. He delivered Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, and the two truly great sequels to Raiders of the Lost Ark. Although the prequels may not be great - they're certainly not as terrible as some films which were promoted and endorsed by the original creators. Like James Cameron's glowing endorsement of Terminator Genisys, or William Peter Blatty's endorsement of Exorcist: The Beginning.

GL delivered a clean three-act movie with Star Wars (ANH). Don't get me wrong, that's not the only successful way to structure a movie, but it's by far the most popular and most widely understood by screenwriters and critics. Now when I look at that film what I see is a very strong first act, and a great second act that expands the story. The weak spot in the film is the third act, which only around 20 minutes or so of screen time is devoted to.

Let's talk about just the first act. The first act is where you introduce the protagonist, you have to clearly identify their main strengths and weaknesses, and it has to conclude with the protagonist choosing to follow a clear mission (clear to the audience). In the case of Star Wars, the first act concludes when Luke accepts his mission to go to Alderan to deliver the R2 unit to the resistance, approximately 40 minutes into the film. Now the second act is generally used to expand the mission, and of course grow the character of the protagonist. Many truly great films use this act of the film as a roller-coaster ride for the audience, where the original mission seems to be completed, but gets stopped somehow and often replaced with a more difficult mission. If we look at Star Wars, we see this when they arrive at Alderan to discover that it's been destroyed. But then we also find out that the rebel base is not there, and the protagonist has a new task. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. The first act is used to place the setting, introduce us to the protagonist, tell us who he or she is. Since we know where the first act ends, if we were to write this story we know we need to tell the audience what's going on, and tell them about the character of the protagonist in this part.

Here we find that Luke is a farm-boy who wants to go to the academy. So we know what his ambitions are. We also find out that the Empire is a military dictatorship much despised by the people, at least on Luke's planet, but of course most of them don't want to get involved. This is Luke's weakness. He wants to feel safe, he doesn't want to get involved in the seemingly futile fight against the Galactic Empire. Indeed when he's first offered the chance by Ben to get involved he chooses not to. But when he sees that the Empire has destroyed his family - who were innocent - in an attempt to recover the droids in his possession, he then chooses to follow Ben and help the resistance in their fight against the Empire.

Everything we need to know about the fantasy universe we find ourselves in is explained in the first act - in this case in the first 40 minutes. We learn about the Empire, the Resistance, the Jedi, and what a lightsaber is. We also learn that most people are not willing to fight against the Empire, even though they hate it. We also learn that the Empire has built a doomsday weapon designed to ensure they can't be overthrown, but that the Rebellion poses an active threat against Galactic Empire rule.

Let's talk about why The Phantom Menace was only B-grade. Again the first act of the movie identifies your protagonist, the setting, and what their mission is. The protagonist's decision is what drives the story. Curiously in the Phantom Menace, we have Anakin becoming the central character - but this isn't until the second act of the film. Therefore he can't be the protagonist. It also can't be the Queen, because her true identity is hidden from the viewer until the third act, and she doesn't make a decision to take a mission until the end of the second act of the film. It's also not Obi-Wan Kenobi, because he spends the whole movie doing what his master Qui-Gon tells him to do, spends lengthy periods of time away from the action (such as on Tatooine where he stays in the ship), and doesn't accept his own mission (to train Anakin) until well into the third act of the film. Therefore he can't be the protagonist either. That leaves us with only Qui-Gon Jinn who must be the film's protagonist. Next let's identify when he accepts his mission - that's easy.

His original mission in the film, when it begins, is to open negotiations with the Trade Federation to end their blockade at Naboo. When that fails, he and his apprentice escape to Naboo, where they first meet the Gungans, and then the Queen. And this is where he accepts his mission - to see the Queen safely to Coruscant. Yet this is only 24 minutes into the movie - so the first act is very short. Also, he completes this mission without a problem in the second act of the film. So now we've identified the structural problems with the film - he shouldn't have been able to complete his mission until the third act. The whole point of the three act structure is that this is when the original problem gets resolved.

Now you might say "Ah, but in Star Wars they also get to their destination in the second act" - but this is not so. Although they do arrive at Alderan, Luke's actual mission is to take the droids to the Rebellion, not to simply arrive at a location. But in Phantom Menace it's made abundantly clear that Qui-Gon's mission is simply to see the Queen of Naboo safely to Coruscant.

So this tells me how I have to structure the rest of the film. The second act is where we develop Qui-Gon's character, and where possible we have failed attempts to complete his mission, where new obstacles arise. But Phantom Menace doesn't do this - instead the mission is completed around 1h20m into the film. Furthermore there's little attempt made to develop Qui-Gon's character.

So you might say - well the mission isn't to take the Queen to Coruscant, the mission is to drive out the Trade Federation. But this can't be the case, because Qui-Gon's original mission at the start of the film is to present a diplomatic solution to do just that; thus since it's his pre-existing mission in the movie he can't make a decision later on to make that his mission. So to summarise, the main problems with the film are all to do with the story's structure, and with not developing the character of the film's protagonist. When you look at the film yourself you might see other flaws in it, but those are the main ones from which the more obvious flaws arise.

The third act of the film all revolves around the Queen's decision to return to Naboo and fight. But she makes this decision at the end of the 2nd act, thus it doesn't drive the story up to that point. Also, Qui-Gon's decision to free Anakin and train him also does not drive the film's story.

So then let's look back at when Qui-Gon makes the decision to accept his mission. In that scene he also appears to want to uncover the motivations of the Trade Federation. Ah so perhaps that decision is what drives the film then? Sadly - no. Although he does express interest in it, he doesn't make a clear decision to uncover the conspiracy at work. And furthermore they don't uncover the conspiracy, nor do they really attempt to for the remainder of the film. So for all intents and purposes, the third act represents a brand new mission for Qui-Gon. One which he argues against as a matter of fact, but as the film's protagonist it should be his endeavours to complete the mission he accepted in the conclusion of the first act that drives the movie.

Now, Episode VII suffers every possible problem imaginable for a bland formulaic movie. The protagonist's journey doesn't drive it. The protagonist makes their decision way too early in the film, and we're never shown what their weaknesses are (not to mention little effort is given to flesh out her character in the first act). Little to no effort is made to explain the film's setting to the audience, instead with the film-makers simply assuming that the audience is familiar with the subject matter. There is little-to-no character development of the protagonist  in the second act of the film. With a sequel such as this, the first act of the movie is where you should be introducing the audience to a new setting, which begins to expand the fantasy universe, and the second act should be used to expand it further still. Yet this never happens in TFA. We're not even introduced to the New Republic.

If what you want to see is a flashy big-budget movie with lots of special effects, and doesn't take any risks, then go right ahead and tell me this movie is amazing. But if you want a fresh story, with new ideas, and a well put together original plot - this movie delivers none of them. All it delivers is flashy action with a predictable plot that follows ANH as closely as possible.

I saw this movie a couple of days ago...
Nice entertainment value...
Nice SFX...
The story... well... too reminiscent of star wars, the original movie, which was later called "episode IV":
- Droid lost in desert planet holding some important piece of information
- Droid found by person who has some connection with the Force, but is unaware of it.
- Person and droid go off-planet to join the rebellion
- Big bad guys have a super-weapon which "is no moon".
- Newly found friend of main person get killed by main antagonist. (What is it with all the gaping chasms in Star Wars? I wouldn't be caught dead on that flimsy walkway - not even a measly safety handrail...)
- Rebels manage to destroy said weapon with a handful of X-wings. (seriously, I was expecting such a planet-sized battle station to have more than 10 tie fighters, when they are ALL requested to engage the enemy).


Apart from that, I really liked the actress playing Rey.
And the passion and dedication in Finn were spot on!


On the other hand... how the heck does that hologram guy get to be in charge of the galactic empire's remnants?! And, just out of luck, he gets to "seduce" the new impressionable kid, who's probably the second most powerful Force user in the Galaxy?
"always two there are, a master and an apprentice", I know... but these seem to have showed up right after the previous two got busted! Come one! Some consistency! Where do they get so many dark Force experts from?!

While I agree with that criticism, that's one of the more minor problems of the film. Basically what you're saying is that the transition between the end of Return of the Jedi, and the start of Force Awakens doesn't make comprehensible sense. Whereas if you were to look at any other two adjoining Star Wars films, the audience can follow the narrative that exists off-screen between movies. They flow in an easily comprehensible direction. But in TFA, we don't at all understand how we got there. If anything the New Republic should be at the height of their age now following the downfall of the Empire. That's where the film should have begun - but instead we have a threat to the New Republic that simply overthrows it with no resistance. Why can't the New Republic defend themselves from such a threat? Why did not retaliate directly against the New Order.

As I said earlier the film simply makes no sense. The Old Republic was overthrown from within - and that's generally how great and powerful societies do get overthrown. It happened with Nazi Germany, it happened centuries earlier in Egypt for example - they lost their entire existing culture because they converted to Islam - and for over a millennia no one could even read Egyptian hieroglyphs!

(January 2, 2016 at 8:04 am)pocaracas Wrote: I saw this movie a couple of days ago...
Nice entertainment value...
Nice SFX...
The story... well... too reminiscent of star wars, the original movie, which was later called "episode IV":
- Droid lost in desert planet holding some important piece of information
- Droid found by person who has some connection with the Force, but is unaware of it.
- Person and droid go off-planet to join the rebellion
- Big bad guys have a super-weapon which "is no moon".
- Newly found friend of main person get killed by main antagonist. (What is it with all the gaping chasms in Star Wars? I wouldn't be caught dead on that flimsy walkway - not even a measly safety handrail...)
- Rebels manage to destroy said weapon with a handful of X-wings. (seriously, I was expecting such a planet-sized battle station to have more than 10 tie fighters, when they are ALL requested to engage the enemy).


Apart from that, I really liked the actress playing Rey.
And the passion and dedication in Finn were spot on!


On the other hand... how the heck does that hologram guy get to be in charge of the galactic empire's remnants?! And, just out of luck, he gets to "seduce" the new impressionable kid, who's probably the second most powerful Force user in the Galaxy?
"always two there are, a master and an apprentice", I know... but these seem to have showed up right after the previous two got busted! Come one! Some consistency! Where do they get so many dark Force experts from?!

I think the Finn character was totally unbelievable from the moment he appeared on screen.  He is suppose to have been snatched from his family as an infant or very young child, and raised in a brutal, merciless camp geared to produce efficient, merciless, regimented killers.  He is suppose to be the incarnation of the ancient Spartan warrior.   It is not credible that people like that would abandon their entire upbringing, find their conscience the first time they are told to actually do what they have been trained for a life time to do.  Experience shock and hesitation during first battle, perhaps.  Not find his conscience so quickly.  It is also not credible such a person would have any conventional social skills or would fit easily into any society other than the cohorts with whom he was raised and trained.  The story of Fin in TFA is childish, no, infantile, character development for a movie perhaps not consciously meant for infants.  John Boyega might have some acting talent, but it is not as a trained killer without any context to socialize with anyone outside his unit, finding his conscience or not.

The Rey character was slightly less unbelievable at the start, up to the point she took off in an half crewed millennium falcon.   She had been a scavenger eking out the barest of living on a god forsaken outback planet since maybe 6 or 8 years old. It would be out of character for her to have experience flying spaceships.  In fact, it would be in character for her to have never even been in a working spaceship since 6-8 years old.  If she had the opportunity to practice flying spaceships, she could probably find a better living than trudging through desert and rappelling off wrecked star destroyers scavenging small scrap for a quarter portion of a shrink wrapped meal each.   Yes, she maybe familiar with the layout of the inside of a wrecked star destroyer.  It is one thing to know the way.  It is another to pilot a high performance, Nonstandard spaceship she has never flown before, having in all likelihood never flown any sort of spaceship before, as fast as the beat up ship would go through a maze chased by a higher performance fighter craft.  Also, As a scavenger, she may know which parts goes where in some parts of some spaceship, mainly from ripping them out to sell them as scrap.  It is hardly plausible she should know how to actually keep them running, especially in an emergency, and how to conduct emergency repairs.  That's not what scavengers do.   The only thing she should credible be able to repair is her beat up smoke belching speeder.   From there on, the unbelievability only skyrockets, and the least unbelievable part from then on is the trippy dream sequence upon touching the light saber.  That's saying something.  I like Daisy Ridley's acting too.   She is unaffected and takes the role seriously, and she seems to be not without talent.  That makes her the best actor/actress to have yet appeared in a core role in any of the Star Wars movies, Harrison ford included.   But even her acting could hardly distract from the smug Mary Sue implausibility of her character starting from "garbage it is".

I also had some questions about the Finn character and his transition from faceless minion to emotional vulnerability. I love the idea of cracking open a storm trooper uniform and looking at the humanity inside. But I agree the transition seems a bit glib.

But the character I'm still having the most trouble with is the new #2 bad guy. His light saber dustups with control rooms strikes me as odd. Aren't dark side guys supposed to have all the Jedi training plus a dispassionate something more? He just seems way too emotional and unfocussed to me. But I'm withholding judgement until future episodes backfill his story.

But did these two cracks ruin the experience for me? No way.

The plot is simple . PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW, BOOM BOOM BOOM, PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW, The end.

I know I am just joking, but that oversimplification really does go to how ignorant humans are, not ignorant as in "stupid" but unaware for the majority, that no matter how elaborate our stories, and language, even Shakespeare got it, Sagan knew it, that as smart as humans are and as complex we make our stories of good vs evil, friend and foe alike all die. "flurry of activity signifying nothing". I think the more humans face that reality, while there will never be a perfect world, I do think we over complicate life with isms in the form of politics boarders and religion and economic views.

Everyone loves a good good vs evil story, and that is what makes Star Wars so popular. "Take care of yourself Han, I guess that is what you are best at." We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread already in progress.

(January 2, 2016 at 10:11 am)Whateverist the White Wrote: I also had some questions about the Finn character and his transition from faceless minion to emotional vulnerability.  I love the idea of cracking open a storm trooper uniform and looking at the humanity inside.  But I agree the transition seems a bit glib.

But the character I'm still having the most trouble with is the new #2 bad guy.  His light saber dustups with control rooms strikes me as odd.  Aren't dark side guys supposed to have all the Jedi training plus a dispassionate something more?  He just seems way too emotional and unfocussed to me.  But I'm withholding judgement until future episodes backfill his story.

But did these two cracks ruin the experience for me?  No way.

I experienced progressive disinterest as the movie went on.  Were it not for the rip off props and a few old fogies there for nostalgia sake, this movie would have been largely indistinguishable from any one of a large number of thinly plotted, cheap taste pandering, special effect smothered cynical Hollywood money grabs.   Only the hope that the plot would make something substantial of the Rey character the film had half heartedly try to set up during its first 15 minutes, and the belief that Daisy Ridley might pull it off when it does, kept me from dozing off or leaving early. Daisy Ridley certainly seems exponentially more talented than mark hamill.

Besides cheap exploitation of nostalgia, This movie had nothing going for it but Rey, and I think it seriously blew Rey's character development and wasted Daisy Ridley's perhaps slightly naive earnestness.

(January 2, 2016 at 10:19 am)Brian37 Wrote: The plot is simple . PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW, BOOM BOOM BOOM, PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW, The end.

You credit it with too many Pews and Booms.