In fact the Quran itself says it guides and is a mercy however it doesn't increase the unjust but in injustice.  That is it's nature. This is due to what it says, every recitation of a Prophet or every desire and will of a Prophet was meant by what Satan suggested or cast regarding it.  In this situation, God then manifests his signs and clarifies the truth, in which people have a decision to make, believe in the truth and accept the knowledge, or follow what is doubtful and unclear from the uncleanness. Unfortunately, my experience, is people have taken religion as a vain desire, God as a tool for their ego and pride, and have deceived themselves with their desires along with embracing the evil suggestions of Iblis and his forces.  Little reflection and everything becomes easy. Some sincerity and everything becomes easy. Humble fearful prayer and God does wonders.

(January 1, 2016 at 10:41 am)paulpablo Wrote: They don't just use the same book.  Beyond the quran the sunni and shia religions also follow hadith, they differ on which of these hadith books they follow, which they find reliable and so on.

That's understood.

Doesn't change the fact, you're playing the no true scottsman here. The radicals see themselves as muslims winning paradise for their efforts. They are muslims. And you saying they aren't is as stupid as any christian or jew claiming their radicals don't get the right message. The message is there, in all the scriptures and it only depends on the individual, their upbringing and environment how they interpret it. And please, don't argue, the Qran hasn't got passages on killiing infidels. Which, in many cases, the radicals view as fellow muslims.

Imam Ali said "The Quran has many faces..." the Sunnah was suppose to be the solution to that problem, Ahlulbayt were meant to safeguard the interpretation and clarification, but disaster...that's what happened. Disaster.

Disaster always strikes when someone takes scripture literally.

(January 1, 2016 at 10:50 am)abaris Wrote:

(January 1, 2016 at 10:41 am)paulpablo Wrote: They don't just use the same book.  Beyond the quran the sunni and shia religions also follow hadith, they differ on which of these hadith books they follow, which they find reliable and so on.

That's understood.

Doesn't change the fact, you're playing the no true scottsman here. The radicals see themselves as muslims winning paradise for their efforts. They are muslims. And you saying they aren't is as stupid as any christian or jew claiming their radicals don't get the right message. The message is there, in all the scriptures and it only depends on the individual, their upbringing and environment how they interpret it. And please, don't argue, the Qran hasn't got passages on killiing infidels. Which, in many cases, the radicals view as fellow muslims.

I'm not playing no true Scotsman I'm just stating a fact, that they follow different books.  Shia, sunni or the nation of Islam are all Muslims from my perspective.

(January 1, 2016 at 11:27 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm not playing no true Scotsman I'm just stating a fact, that they follow different books. 

The foundation of all these people being the Qran, or do you want to debate that? Doesn't matter if someone later brings up different materials or interpretations.

(January 1, 2016 at 11:42 am)abaris Wrote:

(January 1, 2016 at 11:27 am)paulpablo Wrote: I'm not playing no true Scotsman I'm just stating a fact, that they follow different books. 

The foundation of all these people being the Qran, or do you want to debate that? Doesn't matter if someone later brings up different materials or interpretations.

The quran is the foundation of what they believe in, but they follow different hadith.  It does matter about the other materials because the vast sunni or shia muslims take the hadith surprisingly seriously.

(December 31, 2015 at 10:48 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: This is just the "No True Muslim" argument dressed up in pious bullshit.

You mean I can't call the bluff on a fake dude; or I will be accused of coming up with hidden bullshit that is actually a "no true Muslim" argument  ?


Minimalist 

Ironically, they never say who funds them in these interviews; like who's providing them with their beard jell & all..

Brakeman

Wakeup from the fairytale. Those you cited are proxies, created by well known countries to cause certain actions, which if countered with the correct dosage of reaction, will produce a revenue that cannot be neglected.

MrNoMorePropaganda

Quote:Those are some stupid beliefs. People can't even prove Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael. All they have a is a list of invented names in the Hadith.

That's why tribalism never wins. 
The world killed out the "king and prince" type of mentality because, as you said, yes it is stupid.

But the caliphate is nothing but an ancient election system. It's the same system used today by secular states. The caliph is nothing more than an elected individual. It was forged through the Hadith to become a kingship (the transition took place with the advent of the Ummayads https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad_Caliphate ).

The label (caliphate) is not that important. The method though is what matters. There must be elections -the Quran says it-; sadly that's one thing Sunni/Shia faiths managed to hide & cover up through false hadiths.

Changing from elections to dictatorship, one sad transition but it took place.


MysticKnight

Quote:It's a whole different thing if we approach religion or morality or guidance or God's book, with the intention, of turning it into what are desires say it is. It's as if we are leaders of the Quran rather then the Quran being our leader.

Quote:In fact the Quran itself says it guides and is a mercy however it doesn't increase the unjust but in injustice.  That is it's nature. This is due to what it says, every recitation of a Prophet or every desire and will of a Prophet was meant by what Satan suggested or cast regarding it.  In this situation, God then manifests his signs and clarifies the truth, in which people have a decision to make, believe in the truth and accept the knowledge, or follow what is doubtful and unclear from the uncleanness. Unfortunately, my experience, is people have taken religion as a vain desire, God as a tool for their ego and pride, and have deceived themselves with their desires along with embracing the evil suggestions of Iblis and his forces.  Little reflection and everything becomes easy. Some sincerity and everything becomes easy. Humble fearful prayer and God does wonders.


Imam Ali said "The Quran has many faces..." the Sunnah was suppose to be the solution to that problem, Ahlulbayt were meant to safeguard the interpretation and clarification, but disaster...that's what happened. Disaster.

Indeed. Interpreting the Quran based on personal "wishes and fantasies" is what produced today's mess.
I personally put a high bet on God's mercy & justice. He won't send forth a book, citing its importance in many occasions, without giving each & every human the chance to realize it.

Linking salvation to following role models (prophets) is valid in some cases, but recently (since Abraham) it's all about the book ;societies were too big anyhow for one man to preach . 

The first mess to ever happen, was when believers realized that their role models are all dead. That realization, opened the door of "Interpreting holy books based on personal wishes and fantasies". 

Though, if the Quran had many faces -for no obvious reasons-, then God had failed to prove his superiority as a deity. Rather, our brains are the source of the dynamic nature of the understanding in my opinion. That is, color blindness never change the reality of colors -RGB being RGB and all-. We get the face we want, according to the wish we carry. If our wish is reality, then reality is what we get. It has everything to do with us, and nothing to do with the book itself.


abris

Quote:Yes, your understanding. But we're witnessing Sunni violence at the moment. Carried out by people having a differrent understanding, but using the same book. In short, cherry picked violence, only using the violent Suras. You probably subscribe to the non violent Suras about helping people. But both, violent and good, as I already said, can be found in any holy book. And people act according to their nature and the environment the grew up in.

Believing in a Quranic verse yet ignoring another is a case of self deception; something that Muslims rarely pay attention to. Books are read as a whole, only reading subsets of a novel would never mean we realized the whole tale; rather : we just convinced ourselves that we got it. Got of course what our minds wanted to hear & read.

Paulablo

Quote:The quran is the foundation of what they believe in, but they follow different hadith.  It does matter about the other materials because the vast sunni or shia muslims take the hadith surprisingly seriously.

Spot on. The hadith to Sunni/Shia Muslims is the same as the Quran; sometimes it's even more powerful. 
If the Hadith is taken away, Muslims would change dramatically; the problem is not a different understanding of the Quran, but rather different sets of chosen Hadiths.

I see the Saudi embassy in Tehran is on fire.

I suppose the Sunnis and the Shias will agree to blame the Jews for this outrage.

It seems pretty clear that the Shi'a are blaming the Sunnis for this outrage.