Negatron.  I pay by the hour or by weight, whichever is greater.  This gives me a baseline which motivates the shit out of labor - they know they'll pull ten an hour (and they'd rather work for me than for a tobacco field because of that all on it's own)...but that I'll pay them even more if they work their asses off. I also manage to make a better roi than the standard model on any given field.

Now that I've got you engaged......why is it you feel that you can point to the worst possible example of a predatory business model as though it were the only model and as though it somehow made some comment about anyone not involved in those decisions whatsoever...and even more quixotically...if you -did- want to show that everyone was as big a cunt as you are..why point to a captive market in the first place?  People have no choice but to eat...and so if food was farmed literally -in- the mutilated backs of an oppressed group it's not as though a creature that -has- to eat could ultimately refuse to eat on account of it.  Sure, sure, you may take a principled stand as long as you can hold out but you'll still feed your kids three squares a day.

In short, why are you such a fucking moron? Lemme guess....because "god".

(January 14, 2016 at 11:19 am)Rhythm Wrote: Negatron.  I pay by the hour or by weight, whichever is greater.  This gives me a baseline which motivates the shit out of labor - they know they'll pull ten an hour (and they'd rather work for me than for a tobacco field because of that all on it's own)...but that I'll pay them even more if they work their asses off.  I also manage to make a better roi than the standard model on any given field.

that's great! so may I ask why use migrant workers at all? why not simply staff from a day labor pool??

I'm asking because we both know that the labor laws are far less strict when it comes to treatment of workers and child labor laws. That is why people use and the government allows for 'migrant work' that is the key difference in that they are not subject to federal minimum wage requirements, OSHA protection, no workers comp laws, No over time requirements, or labor restrictions, child labor laws are far more liberal (10 year olds can be used in some crops) the list goes on and can be found on a official government site.. The point being I'm sure if you switched over to a labor ready or some other legit day labor company your migrant workers would funnel through them, and enjoy the federal protections this government mandates to every other field of work, rather than working for you directly without any type of federally mandated safety net..

All that said, Unless you do supply the whole country with everything a migrant worker is allowed to process, then I say my point stands. Because even if you (some micro farm) supplies even a large chain like whole foods with one product, the rest of the industry is indeed using migrant workers as far as the law will allow them to be used!

(January 14, 2016 at 11:38 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 14, 2016 at 11:19 am)Rhythm Wrote: Negatron.  I pay by the hour or by weight, whichever is greater.  This gives me a baseline which motivates the shit out of labor - they know they'll pull ten an hour (and they'd rather work for me than for a tobacco field because of that all on it's own)...but that I'll pay them even more if they work their asses off.  I also manage to make a better roi than the standard model on any given field.

that's great! so may I ask why use migrant workers at all? why not simply staff from a day labor pool??

I'm asking because we both know that the labor laws are far less strict when it comes to treatment of workers and child labor laws. That is why people use and the government allows for 'migrant work' that is the key difference in that they are not subject to federal minimum wage requirements, OSHA protection, no workers comp laws, No over time requirements, or labor restrictions, child labor laws are far more liberal (10 year olds can be used in some crops) the list goes on and can be found on a official government site.. The point being I'm sure if you switched over to a labor ready or some other legit day labor company your migrant workers would funnel through them, and enjoy the federal protections this government mandates to every other field of work, rather than working for you directly without any type of federally mandated safety net..

All that said, Unless you do supply the whole country with everything a migrant worker is allowed to process, then I say my point stands. Because even if you (some micro farm) supplies even a large chain like whole foods with one product, the rest of the industry is indeed using migrant workers as far as the law will allow them to be used!

Even if we as a Society all collectively condoned slavery that a STILL doesn't make any less immoral.

@Drich
How about I just ignore all of the things you got wrong with regards to labor laws and ag and answer those questions relevant to my model?  I don't use day laborers because migrant laborers are more experienced.  I also do not wish to pay a fee on their wages (day labor companies aren't charities)...and my labor pool can't work at a day labor facility, legally, without a SS number, nor would any who could work through companies on a visa be given those benefits only guaranteed to citizens.   More than any of that, I'm committed to -not- being an example of a bad model, and I'm not interested in predatory hiring and wage practices, nor do I need them as a crutch to be solvent.  Why..because I don't condone slavery -or- explotation.

I've already commented on the ignorance of implicating a captive consumer for the most questionable models that a supplier might engage in.  I don't know what I can add to that, and obviously it doesn't matter what I have to say about it or what any fact of any matter is, to you.  You -need- to make yourself comfortable with your comments and I don't see you letting some minor detail like a fact or coherent thought getting in the way.

(January 14, 2016 at 11:38 am)Drich Wrote:

(January 14, 2016 at 11:19 am)Rhythm Wrote: Negatron.  I pay by the hour or by weight, whichever is greater.  This gives me a baseline which motivates the shit out of labor - they know they'll pull ten an hour (and they'd rather work for me than for a tobacco field because of that all on it's own)...but that I'll pay them even more if they work their asses off.  I also manage to make a better roi than the standard model on any given field.

that's great! so may I ask why use migrant workers at all? why not simply staff from a day labor pool??

I'm asking because we both know that the labor laws are far less strict when it comes to treatment of workers and child labor laws. That is why people use and the government allows for 'migrant work' that is the key difference in that they are not subject to federal minimum wage requirements, OSHA protection, no workers comp laws, No over time requirements, or labor restrictions, child labor laws are far more liberal (10 year olds can be used in some crops) the list goes on and can be found on a official government site.. The point being I'm sure if you switched over to a labor ready or some other legit day labor company your migrant workers would funnel through them, and enjoy the federal protections this government mandates to every other field of work, rather than working for you directly without any type of federally mandated safety net..

All that said, Unless you do supply the whole country with everything a migrant worker is allowed to process, then I say my point stands. Because even if you (some micro farm) supplies even a large chain like whole foods with one product, the rest of the industry is indeed using migrant workers as far as the law will allow them to be used!

Owning another human being is immoral even if everyone agreed slavery is okay doesn't make it okay.
What if you were a slave you wouldn't like to get treated inhumanly slaves in biblical days and modern days
are treated sub human and even like trash.

(January 14, 2016 at 11:29 am)Rhythm Wrote: Now that I've got you engaged......why is it you feel that you can point to the worst possible example of a predatory business model as though it were the only model and as though it somehow made some comment about anyone not involved in those decisions whatsoever...and even more quixotically...if you -did- want to show that everyone was as big a cunt as you are..why point to a captive market in the first place?  People have no choice but to eat...and so if food was farmed literally -in- the mutilated backs of an oppressed group it's not as though a creature that -has- to eat could ultimately refuse to eat on account of it.  Sure, sure, you may take a principled stand as long as you can hold out but you'll still feed your kids three squares a day.

In short, why are you such a fucking moron?  Lemme guess....because "god".

Wake up sport. You may own a small family farm and can afford to charge a premium for your 'organically grown cabbage' (or whatever product you grow/sell) so you can afford to give your workers a rate comparable to $8.00 per hour burger flipper. (Remember you are bragging about being on the high end of the pay scale.) I am pointing out a federally mandated and protected slave class, that other people other companies do not have to pay well. It's great that you pay as much or even more than minimum wage, but know it is not required in the field of work. If it is not required do you really think that a company who sells their cabbage  for 50% less than what you do whole sale will pay their workers the same amount of money you pay your guys?
Especially if the government does not mandate it?

I have work in refrigeration for the last 24 years. I own a company who builds and sell coolers freezers for storage and the refrigerated trucks/vans that deliver this product all of the country. as a result I have traveled all over the country selling and installing equipment to big corporate farms and micro farmers, and I have seen all of this first hand from the ground all the way through production and final delivery to market. for just about everything one can buy at a supermarket. I have seen the same pattern repeated over and over and over again. Why? It's The only way everyone can eat affordably. That is to have caged eggs, 'enriched' beef/meats and assembly line produce where cost is cut at every corner. Labor being the greatest expense, and easiest to cut.

And even that is too much. That is why we now have stores like Aldi who get their food from countries who have absolutely no restrictions on labor and according to that USA today article still own chattle slaves. just so we can have more affordable food.

You are a rare exception and not the rule.

So the short answer why do I point to a worst case? Because that is what this government allows, and I see it abused (people getting paid less/worked more) But again I also see the need. Like you said we all have to eat. Their is no way to feed everyone unless we have slaves doing the stuff slaves have always done. We have yet to create a society on mass not dependent on slavery in one form or another.

(January 14, 2016 at 11:55 am)Heat Wrote:

(January 14, 2016 at 11:38 am)Drich Wrote: that's great! so may I ask why use migrant workers at all? why not simply staff from a day labor pool??

I'm asking because we both know that the labor laws are far less strict when it comes to treatment of workers and child labor laws. That is why people use and the government allows for 'migrant work' that is the key difference in that they are not subject to federal minimum wage requirements, OSHA protection, no workers comp laws, No over time requirements, or labor restrictions, child labor laws are far more liberal (10 year olds can be used in some crops) the list goes on and can be found on a official government site.. The point being I'm sure if you switched over to a labor ready or some other legit day labor company your migrant workers would funnel through them, and enjoy the federal protections this government mandates to every other field of work, rather than working for you directly without any type of federally mandated safety net..

All that said, Unless you do supply the whole country with everything a migrant worker is allowed to process, then I say my point stands. Because even if you (some micro farm) supplies even a large chain like whole foods with one product, the rest of the industry is indeed using migrant workers as far as the law will allow them to be used!

Even if we as a Society all collectively condoned slavery that a STILL doesn't make any less immoral.

That's not true. that is why I gave you the example of Homosexuality and the societal view on it.

50 years ago it was beyond immoral. Now pop culture says it is immoral to say Homosexuality is a sin and homosexuality is 'moral.' The 'morality' changed with pop culture. Man's morality is not an absolute. It is tied to whatever the culture will allow/condone. That is why God's righteousness/What the bible says about slavery is wrong to you. The culture change the bible/God did not.

(January 14, 2016 at 12:20 pm)Drich Wrote: Wake up sport. You may own a small family farm and can afford to charge a premium for your 'organically grown cabbage' (or whatever product you grow/sell) so you can afford to give your workers a rate comparable to $8.00 per hour burger flipper. (Remember you are bragging about being on the high end of the pay scale.)

Organic cabbage?  I don;t grow organic anything.....I'm not a scammer, remember, lol?  I'm actually -not- at the high end of the pay scale for my model.  If anything...slightly below average.

Quote:I am pointing out a federally mandated and protected slave class, that other people other companies do not have to pay well. It's great that you pay as much or even more than minimum wage, but know it is not required in the field of work. If it is not required do you really think that a company who sells their cabbage  for 50% less than what you do whole sale will pay their workers the same amount of money you pay your guys?

-and I;m pointing out that I neither engage in nor condone their model..which is all that I need to point out to put the lie to your claim utterly and completely.

Quote:Especially if the government does not mandate it?

You don't know what the government actually does or doesn't mandate, a fact made explicitly clear in your previous comments.  

Quote:I have work in refrigeration for the last 24 years.

Is that what they call it at your McDonalds when you grab the eggs out of the walkin?

Quote:I own a company who builds and sell coolers freezers for storage and the refrigerated trucks/vans that deliver this product all of the country. as a result I have traveled all over the country selling and installing equipment to big corporate farms and micro farmers, and I have seen all of this first hand from the ground all the way through production and final delivery to market. for just about everything one can buy at a supermarket. I have seen the same pattern repeated over and over and over again. Why? It's The only way everyone can eat affordably. That is to have caged eggs, 'enriched' beef/meats and assembly line produce where cost is cut at every corner. Labor being the greatest expense, and easiest to cut.

My food costs less to the consumer than the wholesale products and yet I still make a better roi.  Use your business acumen to figure out why that might be, and how it..again...puts the lie to another of your claims.

Quote:And even that is too much. That is why we now have stores like Aldi who get their food from countries who have absolutely no restrictions on labor and according to that USA today article still own chattle slaves. just so we can have more affordable food.

Someone else's predatory business model has what to do with me and what I condone, again?  

Quote:You are a rare exception and not the rule.

I'm neither, actually.  

Quote:So the short answer why do I point to a worst case? Because that is what this government allows, and I see it abused (people getting paid less/worked more) But again I also see the need. Like you said we all have to eat. Their is no way to feed everyone unless we have slaves doing the stuff slaves have always done. We have yet to create a society on mass not dependent on slavery in one form or another.

You point to a worst case because you -are- a worst case....and familiarity breeds comfort. What the fuck is the problem here Drich? You condone slavery and I do not...why are you incapable of accepting that? Why is it that you need everyone to be like you?


Holy shit...I think we've found your shame.......and I was almost certain it didn't exist.

(January 14, 2016 at 12:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: @Drich
How about I just ignore all of the things you got wrong with regards to labor laws and ag and answer those questions relevant to my model?  I don't use day laborers because migrant laborers are more experienced.  I also do not wish to pay a fee on their wages (day labor companies aren't charities)...and my labor pool can't work at a day labor facility, legally, without a SS number, nor would any who could work through companies on a visa be given those benefits only guaranteed to citizens.   More than any of that, I'm committed to -not- being an example of a bad model, and I'm not interested in predatory hiring and wage practices, nor do I need them as a crutch to be solvent.  Why..because I don't condone slavery -or- explotation.

I've already commented on the ignorance of implicating a captive consumer for the most questionable models that a supplier might engage in.  I don't know what I can add to that, and obviously it doesn't matter what I have to say about it or what any fact of any matter is, to you.  You -need- to make yourself comfortable with your comments and I don't see you letting some minor detail like a fact or coherent thought getting in the way.

One farm or even 1000 farms like yours does not feed an entire nation of people in such away as the food can be affordable to purchase by it's citizens.

again you May be the exception paying more than min wage not the rule.

http://nfwm.org/education-center/farm-wo...abor-laws/

If you don't know that the things I said were true about migrant workers then maybe your plowing fields on an imaginary farm.

*Amendment: I said child laborers can be as young as 10, I don't know what I was thinking. according to that website the age is 12 in somecases/some crops.