(January 15, 2016 at 1:22 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Because they are linked to violence, domination and abuse of others, abuse of power, and the idea that "might makes right".  Now, in a perfect world, strength and aggression would only be celebrated in the context of sport - but that isn't the case.

No offence, but that's sexist.

(January 15, 2016 at 1:26 pm)pool the great Wrote:

(January 15, 2016 at 1:22 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Because they are linked to violence, domination and abuse of others, abuse of power, and the idea that "might makes right".  Now, in a perfect world, strength and aggression would only be celebrated in the context of sport - but that isn't the case.

No offence, but that's sexist.

Sexist would be claiming that I hate and distrust ALL men because they are aggressive and competitive.  All men are not, and I have known many who successfully combat these traits within themselves.  I have great respect for them.  (I worked in a karate school for a few decades.)  Realist is saying that there can be a problem with an attribute.  There are plenty of problems with female behaviors as well - - passive-aggressive behaviors, for one small example.  It's not sexist to say that violence and domination of others, which are based in aggression, are negative behaviors.

So, it's not that you distrust all men....only the aggressive and competitive ones?  




This is a minefield man, all directions lead to ruin.

(January 15, 2016 at 1:25 pm)Brian37 Wrote:

(January 15, 2016 at 1:06 pm)pool the great Wrote: Yes, I did mean the stereotypical characteristics. Why is there a negative aura attached to those qualities in a man?

Because in reality evolution is not a script. Humans are individuals, not sheep. 

It is ok for example, for a women to go to a nude beach. It is ok for a women to cuss. None of those things are saying it is ok in all contexts. A man cant strip naked on a public bus. Nor is it ok for women or men to shout cuss words at a kindergarten class.  It is also ok for a man to cry. It is also ok for a man to be financially supported by a woman. What matters is CONSENT, not who does what.

There is nothing negative about telling someone to mind their own business. Unless you are involved you have no say. Clear enough for you?

As far as I can tell, you are saying that there is nothing wrong with not following these stereotypes, which I agree with.
I would however like to hear your opinion on

pool the great Wrote:Yes, I did mean the stereotypical characteristics. Why is there a negative aura attached to those qualities in a man?

(January 15, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, it's not that you distrust all men....only the aggressive and competitive ones?  




This is a minefield man, all directions lead to ruin.

Is it?  We live in a world where the number one cause of death in women is men.  Rape is a spectator sport.  One in four women has been raped by her father.  Every American woman is afraid walking alone at night.   Everybody knows a woman who has been beaten.  

Competition has been a good thing for the human race, and leads to cultural and scientific gains, so I probably should not have included it.  Aggression and violence, though - yes, these are quite dangerous things.  Yes, I admit --  I can think of a number of guys who were very aggressive in behavior, who were proud of how well they could fight, who would deliberately get in fights on the street and brag about putting guys in the hospital - - - hell yes, I distrusted them.  And most of the guys did too.  It's the attitude. And to display that attitude openly usually requires a culturally-based support of it.

Am I saying ALL males?  No.  I'm saying that there is a problem, and I'll go further and say that it won't be solved until males take a stand against it.

(January 15, 2016 at 12:06 pm)pool the great Wrote: I'd like to ask a question to my fellow males:

Why does some people, especially men, despise some qualities of masculinity such as aggression and competitiveness?

Isn't that what makes us men? Why should we deny these qualities that makes us who we are? I mean like I don't see, and I don't mean to offend anyone, any females despising their feminine qualities or anyone advocating them to be more masculine?
Is it really a bad thing to be a man?

I watch a lot of videos and read a lot of books about evolved behaviour and I've seen this sort of thing being mentioned.

In general men compete more aggressively than females do, it has something to do with the egg being more valuable than the sperm which is more disposable and many other factors that mean women tend to be selectors of the men who compete to be selected.

But also there may be environmental factors to consider, competitive aggression would increase in a situation with a lack of resources and probably decrease with more resources. If you could take a man and put him into a situation where he's rich and in a population with a lot of women his aggressive competitive nature might not kick in as much as it would if he were poor with a lack of women. (some immigrants in Germany spring to mind)

I know plenty of women who strive to be more masculine, they are lesbians usually.

Plus I'm assuming you acknowledge the men who despise competitive aggression are in the minority?  It's rare to find a man who isn't interested in at least some sort of competitive aggressive game, sport, hobby and so on. 

It's not inherently a bad thing to be a competitive aggressive man at all but what people usually observe is that there's a double edged sword when it comes to aggression and competitiveness.  It results in rape, technological progression, war, sports, crime, just different things from the same source.

(January 15, 2016 at 1:52 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: We live in a world where the number one cause of death in women is men

Heart disease, cancer, chronic lower respiratory disease, stroke, and Alzheimer's are the top five causes of death in women. Feel free to make your point using factual information in the future. There's plenty to be said without making up statistics.

(January 15, 2016 at 1:21 pm)Ben Davis Wrote:

(January 15, 2016 at 9:48 am)pool the great Wrote: I'd like to point out that gender stereotypes was not magically imposed by someone.

Well, that's exactly the thing; they are. Some shallow observations have been made and a generalisation has resulted, memegenic enough to propagate and exploitable enough to use as a eugenic construct. Stereotypes change and the current ones are in transition in western, Euro/Americised nations. In the meantime, these unrealistic imagaries are the cause of much grief and that must be called out.  

Quote:These stereotypes(or rather characteristics) were formed as a result of thousands of years of evolution.

So you think. What about aspects, emergent from chromosomatic differences, which aren't on your lists? Why shouldn't they be included? Would your views of gender change if the stereotypes were different? And in spite of all that, so what? Isn't the immediate impact of these stereotypes the important thing rather than their origin/source?

Quote:For example:
...women are often expected to be passive, loving and caring, while men are usually expected to be aggressive, protective and dominant.

You can expect whatever you like! If you're not paying attention to the discrete behaviour of the individual, you're going to run in to trouble.

Quote:I guess my point is, these characteristics are not a result of gender stereotyping...

Sometimes they are. Do you know how many people have had their lives made miserable in some way by authorities/peers trying to enforce stereotypes? I'd hate to try and put a number on it! Sometimes people are forced to change their behaviour & personalities in order to fit the enforced views; they literally repress themselves and hide behind publically acceptable masks.

Quote:So is it really smart to challenge them?

Yes because they're not only inappropriate in a modern, Euro/Americised context but they're demonstrably harmful.

I agree with your opinion that stereotypes can cause much harm.
But doesn't that mean that we should ignore these stereotypes rather challenge them, so that people can have freedom to be who they want to be.
For example, we all know what a stereotypical male programmer looks like. Wouldn't it benefit a person to ignore this stereotype completely and choose how they want to be rather than making it a point to actively challenge the stereotype?
Why do you think it's better to challenge a stereotype rather than ignoring them?
In my opinion challenging a stereotype doesn't give freedom for a person to be who they are, but I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

(January 15, 2016 at 1:52 pm)drfuzzy Wrote:

(January 15, 2016 at 1:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: So, it's not that you distrust all men....only the aggressive and competitive ones?  




This is a minefield man, all directions lead to ruin.

Is it?  We live in a world where the number one cause of death in women is men.  Rape is a spectator sport.  One in four women has been raped by her father.  Every American woman is afraid walking alone at night.   Everybody knows a woman who has been beaten.  

Competition has been a good thing for the human race, and leads to cultural and scientific gains, so I probably should not have included it.  Aggression and violence, though - yes, these are quite dangerous things.  Yes, I admit --  I can think of a number of guys who were very aggressive in behavior, who were proud of how well they could fight, who would deliberately get in fights on the street and brag about putting guys in the hospital - - - hell yes, I distrusted them.  And most of the guys did too.  It's the attitude. And to display that attitude openly usually requires a culturally-based support of it.

Am I saying ALL males?  No.  I'm saying that there is a problem, and I'll go further and say that it won't be solved until males take a stand against it.

One in four women has been raped by her father?  Where did you get that statistic from?

(January 15, 2016 at 1:57 pm)Losty Wrote:

(January 15, 2016 at 1:52 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: We live in a world where the number one cause of death in women is men

Heart disease, cancer, chronic lower respiratory disease, stroke, and Alzheimer's are the top five causes of death in women. Feel free to make your point using factual information in the future. There's plenty to be said without making up statistics.

The more I read your post I'm starting to think you intentionally gave incorrect info as a joke that went over my head. If that's the case, then sorry.