(January 24, 2016 at 6:14 pm)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 4:52 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Except with threats of eternal torment and the constant demands for love like a hard to please girlfriend.
I mean have you seen the ten commandments! so needy.

Shallow words spoken like a high school underclassman.

Try to go a little deeper than the crap you've picked up from forums like this and Reddit.

Hey athrock, since you love William Lane Craig so much, and since you think he occupies a position in some prestigious edifice of educational rigor, do you wanna know what Talbot school of theology features as part of its statement of faith?

Talbot School of Theology doctrinal statement Wrote:All those who persistently reject Jesus Christ in the present life shall be raised from the dead and throughout eternity exist in the state of conscious, unutterable, endless torment of anguish.

So... which is it? Are threats of hell "shallow words," deserving of high school underclassmen, or are they high theology befitting what you've asserted to be an impressive institute of learning? You can't have it both ways.

(January 25, 2016 at 4:08 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 3:47 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: God is saying there that he allowed the Jews to commit atrocities as a punishment (innocent children dying is apparently incidental). It is not saying that God ordered it or even liked it.

No, it does not say God "allowed" the Hebrews to murder their firstborn... that would be contrary to any active participation by God. Instead, it says explicitly that God gave them bad statutes and "polluted them in their own gifts," which involved the sacrifice of children.

Gave them bad statutes? It sounds like you are saying God gave them a terrible set of laws as a cruel joke. While I certainly agree with that sentiment, I don't think that the Bible would characterize its own Torah like this.

(January 25, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 4:08 pm)Nestor Wrote: No, it does not say God "allowed" the Hebrews to murder their firstborn... that would be contrary to any active participation by God. Instead, it says explicitly that God gave them bad statutes and "polluted them in their own gifts," which involved the sacrifice of children.

Gave them bad statutes?  It sounds like you are the text is saying God gave them a terrible set of laws as a cruel joke. While I certainly agree with that sentiment, I don't think that the Bible would characterize its own Torah like this.

 Corrected, and yes, that's what it sounds like...

...probably because the author of Ezekiel is putting revisionist spin on a cruel legislative past, essentially saying, "God only commanded that of you then because of your wickedness." *wink wink*

(January 25, 2016 at 8:46 am)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 11:31 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: That is not the point, the point is I cant come to conclusions on what is right or wrong by my own experience because according to you god has already programmed me, that is not free will.

Incorrect.

But first, have you ever consciously done something that you knew you should not do but you chose to do it anyway?

Taken a parking place when someone else had their turn signal on first? Glanced at another student's test paper? Snapped at a family member when you had a bad day at work or school? Failed to deliver on a promise to a friend?

My question is, when you do these things that you know are wrong...without anyone telling you...where does that judgment of right and wrong come from?

That voice of conscience which we all have is an example of the Natural Law that God has "programmed" us with. And we are free to obey or disobey that internal voice.

"These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it. These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and the universe we live in." -C.S. Lewis

Your not addressing my point, I know you can do something you think is immoral, my point AGAIN is that you did not arrive at the conclusion of your actions being right or wrong by your own free will, according to you god has made that determination for us.

(January 25, 2016 at 8:56 am)athrock Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 7:41 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: Do you consider slavery immoral?

Yes, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. 

Seriously, if someone wants to make a case that benevolent slavery (one of the many degrees of slavery which Jorm brought to the table last night) was actually a win-win scenario, I would consider the argument open-mindedly.

Being a well-treated slave in order to work off a debt and then going free sounds better than the alternative of debtor's prison.

So in your objective morality your mind can be changed on what is moral or immoral?

(January 25, 2016 at 7:14 pm)Nestor Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 5:57 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Gave them bad statutes?  It sounds like you are the text is saying God gave them a terrible set of laws as a cruel joke. While I certainly agree with that sentiment, I don't think that the Bible would characterize its own Torah like this.

 Corrected, and yes, that's what it sounds like...

...probably because the author of Ezekiel is putting revisionist spin on a cruel legislative past, essentially saying, "God only commanded that of you then because of your wickedness." *wink wink*

What was our apologist saying about this?

I wonder how we're supposed to tell the difference between revelation from god over time, and just people figuring things out themselves over time.

It depends if there's someone with a massive stupid hat there or not.

(January 25, 2016 at 8:17 am)athrock Wrote:

(January 25, 2016 at 4:37 am)Helio Nimbus Wrote: Which verses make you come to that conclusion?

For starters:

1 John 4:16
So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

So your're cherry picking, how do you feel about the verses full of violence?

(January 24, 2016 at 4:01 pm)athrock Wrote:

(January 24, 2016 at 3:56 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote: Certainly not to cretins like you.

I'm a stupid person, Jormungandr?

Do I not compose my sentences and paragraphs in a manner which suggests that I am of at least average intelligence? 

Very stupid athrock, you claim immorality to be moral, you believe an all-pwerful being can coexist with free will, and a myriad legion of other idiocies. This shows a flawed intellwct at the deepest levels.